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Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
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Author | Topic: Bears | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
In second amendment thread petrophysics1 gave what I think is very dangerous advice for those traveling in bear country.
Message 41 As it is off topic there I decided to post my response here.
As he explained it if they try to run fast down a very steep hill they will go head over heals.
Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that
Source I can find many more sources if needed. Your idea of running down a steep hill seems kind of meaningless as most places you run into a bear you are not going to have a steep hill within a distance where you can get to a safe place before the bear can reach you. Your advice seems to invite people to be hurt or killed. The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back. I would trust state and provincial DNR's and fish and game dept's over some dude. As for northern Ontario unless you are in the Hudson and James bay area all you are going to run into are black bears. There is never a situation in which running from a black bear is the best course of action. There are no grizzleys in Ontario. I'd like to know where in northern Ontario where one could use your advice of running down a steep hill. I have spent a fair amount of time in northern Ontario, wabikimi and further north, and do not know of any steep hills that would suffice. In the vast majority of bear encounters your steep hills just do not exist. Also, shooting a bear in Ontario also is not an option. Carrying a shotgun or sidearm on a fishing trip or canoe trip is not allowed. Still in all my times in BWCA, Quetico, Wabikimi and elsewhere I have had a few encounters with black bears. In none of those circumstances was I not able to get the bear to move off without it resorting to an attack. Yes I have moved on to different campsites, but this seems to be a better idea than to invite another encounter. Oh btw a horse is not a bear and "The Edge" is just a movie..Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that Source I can find many more sources if needed Yea we have the same myth well almost the same not run directly down but diagonally down a steep hil making the bear tumble down or whatever. Me thinks who ever thought about this never saw how agile bears are. We have brown bares in my country and a whole lot of them because they are semi protected and the government cant get it trough its thick scull that not enough are being shot off every year. As for being the fucking only person who lives amidst a Forrest while my countrymen live among vineyards i can dish out a bit of advice that work on brown bears. 1. If a brown bear seas you stay still 99.9% of the time it will walk away. the other 0.1% of the time its probably a female and her cubs are behind you so you are screwed. 2. If you are walking in a bear infested region talk loudly or sing or whatever if you are alone the bear will avoid confrontation so you wont even see it and your pants will remain fecal matter free 3. If you crashed your car into a bear cub drive away fast do not exit do not look around DRIVE AWAY. and then call the hunters to make sure its dead. You dont i repeat YOU DONT want to be anywhere near the cub when the mother realizes what happened to it, iv seen a a brown bear mother rip of a tree stump and chasing a car that hit a cub of hers. 4. Dont try to outrun a bear or at least not our bears i clocked one at 55Kmh while he was running alongside my car 5. dont try to fight a bear it only works in movies and commercials in real life you will be lucky if you survive or keep your lower jaw.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2620 From: massachusetts US Joined: |
A few years back, more than I'd care to recall now, my son, Owen, was working for the National Park Service at King's Canyon National Park, California. Their job was primarily to keep the hiking trails open for hiker tourists. This involved a lot of long multi-day hikes and chain-saw activity that would then settle down for each night somewhere in the Park. One night, while they were all asleep, a bear came into their camp and found the metal food box. The bear managed to loosen it off its mooring and started dragging it away. Owen woke up and looked out of his tent and saw what was happening. He gave a yell, and another, but nobody else in the camp seemed to move. So he jumps up and starts giving chase after the bear. He follows the bear, yelling at him all the time like he was taught at base camp. The bear ignores him and keeps dragging the box away. Owen follows him out into a clearing field and continues. Somewhere across this field, the bear stops. He turns around to Owen following him and drops the chain. Then he erupts into a full charge on Owen. Owen has learned that, for these kind of bears, you must remain absolutely still. And although every nerve in his body is screaming "RUN RUN RUN!!!", he holds his ground, motionless. The bear skids to a halt inches away and regards him. He reaches back and unleashes a swipe of the paw that is designed to miss by 2 inches from Owen's nose. Owen holds his ground. The bear then settles back. By then the rest of the campsite has awakened and, armed with metal cooking pans and spoons, comes bursting out into the field. The bear runs off into the woods. The food is saved. Who is my son? I ask myself, in sheer incredulous admiration. I am continuing to stockpile more Owen stories, as the Legend of Owen transpires.
- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4489 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me.
in the OP's quoted message, from the other thread, there was mention of not being able to carry in national parks nbut this is incorrect, we have been allowed to carry in national parks since 2010 (not that it really changed who carried in the parks).
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frako Member Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me. The typical procedure when you shoot a brown bear in my country is after you think its dead you wait 30 minutes just in case, then you check it out. Our bears are maby not the biggest 400 KG or 880 poundsand 1,8-2 meters tall 5ft 107⁄8in 6ft 63⁄4in but you really dont want to piss one off Edited by frako, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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if five .357 magnum hallow point rounds don't stop the beast then I guess he won and gets to eat me.
There is rarely a need to shoot a bear unless you are hunting it. In a bear encounter in which you have incited the bear to attack I highly doubt you are going to get off 5 effective shots. Also, your choice of ammo shows you are either a poser or just not real smart. Any idea what that hollow point is going to do when it hits that bear? Didn't think so. I don't think 5 .357 hollow points are going to stop a bear of any size. Ever spend much time in the woods? Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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in the OP's quoted message, from the other thread, there was mention of not being able to carry in national parks nbut this is incorrect, we have been allowed to carry in national parks since 2010 (not that it really changed who carried in the parks).
It has been pointed out that you are not referring to what I said. Still cannot find where this was said. Edited by Theodoric, : Confused by what poster is sayingFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator
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You linked to Message 41, where we find:
petrophysics1 writes: With bears it is best to do what Peachy said in "The Man Who Would Be King"...."brass it out Danny". Don't run, open fire (however in National Parks you can't walk around with a gun) Chaoticskunk didn't say you said it. He's referring to the message you linked to.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4489 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined:
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There is rarely a need to shoot a bear unless you are hunting it. In a bear encounter in which you have incited the bear to attack I highly doubt you are going to get off 5 effective shots. I see bears every year, and I have never shot them once, (unless shooting them with a camera counts). worry about your own marksmanship and I will worry about mine.
Also, your choice of ammo shows you are either a poser or just not real smart. hello I am Choaticskunk, and I am brand new around here, guessing by your tone and how you are responding to me, you must be the anoying name calling local TROLL. I would like to say it is a pleasure to meet you but it is not. I am not a real big fan of people like you on message boards, please understand if i totally ignore you and your ignorant ways. Edited by Chaoticskunk, : No reason given. Edited by Chaoticskunk, : No reason given.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4489 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
thank you very much. Learning the ins and outs of this site is still something I am currently doing.
Is there a protocol for me to report name callers like Theo here, or any trolls I may run into, I know this behavior is against the site rules.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LOL lets look at what you originally posted before you edited it. You might not know but a poster can get responses automatically emailed to them.
chaos writes: me writes: Any idea what that hollow point is going to do when it hits that bear? Didn't think so. I don't think 5 .357 hollow points are going to stop a bear of any size. Ever spend much time in the woods? roflmfao who is this ass? And you want to lecture me on namecalling? I notice you didn't answer the question. You might want to research effective .357 ammo for bears before you attempt to save yourself with a .357 and hollowpoints. Lets see what people that know guns have to say.
quote:Source worry about your own marksmanship and I will worry about mine.
Did you read the bolded part?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4405 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
LOL.... I was just getting ready to post a bit of advice about bear spray. I would recommend a can of Bear Spray as a must for anyone who hikes back-country and can't carry a sidearm for whatever reason.
I would choose a double action revolver, Ruger Redhawk maybe, shooting a full metal jacketed round. I would choose a double action revolver because if I hit a misfire then another pull of the trigger is all I need to clear it. FMJ round for the penetration.A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ― Edward R. Murrow "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury
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AdminModulous Administrator (Idle past 245 days) Posts: 897 Joined: |
Is there a protocol for me to report name callers like Theo here, or any trolls I may run into, I know this behavior is against the site rules. Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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FMJ's prob are not a great choice either. Better penetration than the Hollow point, but more of a chance of ricochet off of bone and other hard parts. A flat nose, hard cast round is probably the best choice. It should give good penetration before it expands.
FMJ's tend to be a cheap round. Since they are not made to expand you are going to probably get inconsistent and ineffective performance when it does hit something like a bear. You might get some rounds expanding, others might pass right through(thus you lose all the energy) if you dont make a good body shot. I want to make sure everyone understands that all of these rounds will kill the bear. A bear taking 4+ rounds from a .357 is going to die. It is the damage it can do to you before it dies that necessitates the use of the correct round if you are in one of those EXTREMELY rare situations when you have to shoot a bear for self defense. Also, hunting a bear is vastly different than shooting a bear in self defense. In hunting the shooting is controlled, thought out and analytical(at least it should be). In self defense the shooting is frenzied with adrenaline spiked. It is very difficult to make a good shot when adrenaline is spiked and you are shitting your pants. Watch some of the Olympic shooting events to get a sense of how important relaxation is in making an accurate shot. Bear spray is always the first and best choice. Even if you can carry a sidearm the spray is the best choice. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1764 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Theodoric writes: The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back. In Alaska it is not consider bad form to defecate in ones britches. *I use to live in Wasilla Edited by 1.61803, : add *"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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