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Author
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Topic: Origin of viruses
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Kiddo
Junior Member (Idle past 2785 days) Posts: 4 From: India Joined: 08-10-2012
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Message 1 of 24 (670755)
08-18-2012 2:20 PM
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How did viruses come into existence???
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2 by Admin, posted 08-18-2012 4:39 PM | | Kiddo has responded | | | Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2012 6:17 PM | | Kiddo has not yet responded |
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Admin
Director Posts: 12705 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 2 of 24 (670756)
08-18-2012 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM
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This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue then I'm sure a debate will emerge without going to the trouble of framing the issue more concisely, so I'm going to promote this as is.
| -- | Percy | | | EvC Forum Director |
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Kiddo, posted 08-18-2012 2:20 PM | | Kiddo has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2012 5:28 PM | | Admin has acknowledged this reply | | | Message 17 by Kiddo, posted 08-20-2012 12:27 PM | | Admin has acknowledged this reply |
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Admin
Director Posts: 12705 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 3 of 24 (670758)
08-18-2012 4:40 PM
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Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Origin of viruses thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Dr Adequate
Member Posts: 16111 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 4 of 24 (670760)
08-18-2012 5:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
08-18-2012 4:39 PM
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| This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue ... |
What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Admin, posted 08-18-2012 4:39 PM | | Admin has acknowledged this reply |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 659 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Message 5 of 24 (670762)
08-18-2012 6:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM
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No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Kiddo, posted 08-18-2012 2:20 PM | | Kiddo has not yet responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 12:02 AM | | Dr Jack has responded |
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 72 days) Posts: 921 Joined: 12-26-2011
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What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.
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How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2012 5:28 PM | | Dr Adequate has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM | | foreveryoung has not yet responded | | | Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-20-2012 12:39 PM | | foreveryoung has not yet responded |
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RAZD
Member Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004 Member Rating: 2.0
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Message 7 of 24 (670780)
08-19-2012 12:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
08-18-2012 6:17 PM
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RNA world
Hi Mr Jack | No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life ... |
IIRC, there was some work on virus RNA\DNA that showed homologies between viruses in all branches of cellular life, indication a shared common ancestor. Indeed there is the hypothesis that they are left overs from the RNA world before DNA and cellular live evolved, that they represent a more primitive form of life between pre-biotic chemical evolution and cellular life. | ... but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with. |
Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation. Enjoy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2012 6:17 PM | | Dr Jack has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 4:33 AM | | RAZD has responded |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 659 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Message 8 of 24 (670785)
08-19-2012 4:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
08-19-2012 12:02 AM
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Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD, I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states: quote:
Comparative genomics provides no evidence of a monophyletic origin of all viruses. Many virus groups simply share no common genes, effectively, ruling out any conventional notion of common origin. ... For example, most of the viruses of hyperthermophilic crenarchaea have literally no genes in common with any other viruses, whereas RNA viruses share with DNA viruses and plasmids that replicate via the rolling circle mechanism only extremely distant domains in their respective replication proteins.
| Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation. |
Absolutely, but let's not confuse coherent hypothesis with directly evidenced theory.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 12:02 AM | | RAZD has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 5:19 AM | | Dr Jack has responded |
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RAZD
Member Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004 Member Rating: 2.0
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Message 9 of 24 (670786)
08-19-2012 5:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
08-19-2012 4:33 AM
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Re: RNA world
Hey Mr Jack, | I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states: |
Cool thanks. btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones. Enjoy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 4:33 AM | | Dr Jack has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 5:38 AM | | RAZD has acknowledged this reply |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 659 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Message 10 of 24 (670787)
08-19-2012 5:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-19-2012 5:19 AM
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Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD, | btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones. |
Yes. Genes vital for placental formation are derived from retroviruses. Hang on, I'll dig out a source... Black et al (2010) Endogenous Retroviruses in Trophoblast Differentiation and Placental Development Edited by Mr Jack, : Added reference
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 5:19 AM | | RAZD has acknowledged this reply |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 7729 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 2.9
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| How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends? |
Because that's what magic is. noun
[mass noun]
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces:
suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by foreveryoung, posted 08-18-2012 11:20 PM | | foreveryoung has not yet responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 6:18 AM | | Tangle has not yet responded | | | Message 15 by Percy, posted 08-20-2012 8:20 AM | | Tangle has not yet responded |
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RAZD
Member Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004 Member Rating: 2.0
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Message 12 of 24 (670790)
08-19-2012 6:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM
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Hi Tangle, | (foreveryoung): How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends? |
Because that's what magic is. |
And if they did it all at the formation of the universe ... how would you know? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : splg
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM | | Tangle has not yet responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM | | RAZD has responded |
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1505 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: 02-20-2008
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Message 13 of 24 (670814)
08-19-2012 5:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
08-19-2012 6:18 AM
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| And if they did it all at the formation of the universe |
They? - Oni
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 6:18 AM | | RAZD has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 7:43 PM | | onifre has not yet responded |
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RAZD
Member Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004 Member Rating: 2.0
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Message 14 of 24 (670817)
08-19-2012 7:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
08-19-2012 5:33 PM
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Hi onifre The accepted collective term for he/she/it/they these days. Enjoy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM | | onifre has not yet responded |
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Percy
Member Posts: 19846 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 2.8
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Message 15 of 24 (670842)
08-20-2012 8:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM
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That's not magic! That's just God being God.  --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM | | Tangle has not yet responded |
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