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Author Topic:   Who hurts the US Healthcare system worse?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 1 of 316 (683331)
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


I read this on Facebook recently. It's from the Guardians of the Constitution - you can look it up on Facebook.
This is what it says, claiming to come from an actual Dr.:
quote:
Dear Mr. President:
During my shift in the Emergency Room last night, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient whose smile revealed an expensive Shiny gold tooth, whose body was adorned with a wide assortment of elaborate and costly tattoos, who wore a very expensive
Brand of tennis shoes and who chatted on a new cellular telephone equipped with a popular R&B ringtone.
While glancing over her Patient chart, I happened to notice that her payer status was listed as "Medicaid"! During my examination of her, the patient informed me that she smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and somehow still has money to buy pretzels and beer.
And, you and our Congress expect me to pay for this woman's health care?
I contend that our nation's "health care crisis" is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a "crisis of culture", a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one's self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance.
It is a culture based on the irresponsible credo that "I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me". Once you fix this "culture crisis" that rewards irresponsibility and dependency, you'll be amazed at how quickly our nation's health care difficulties will disappear.
Respectfully,
STARNER JONES, MD
Now, granted, there is no way to check on the validity of this (Unless Theodoric wants to go on a mission) but I'd like to focus on the underlying tone of the message.
It is clear to anyone being honest that the person who wrote this is talking about a black woman who they feel is the main cause of the US's healthcare "difficulties" - as they put it. I'm also quite sure many here at EvC share this very sentiment.
Obviously - or at least obvious to me - this person has some issues with race. And while I admit that SOME people in the black community try to hustle the system, they ARE NOT, by any means, the main source of any difficulties within the healthcare system.
I continue to believe that the over weight, unhealthy people living in the US (that includes people of all race, gender, and income bracket) are the main source of the difficulties.
Anyone care to enlighten me on this? Perhaps we can even touch on whether or not there is an issue with people believe the black community are the biggest burden on the government.
- Oni

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-09-2012 8:30 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 8:48 PM onifre has replied
 Message 5 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2012 10:06 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 12-09-2012 11:11 PM onifre has replied
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 12-10-2012 1:12 PM onifre has replied
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 12-10-2012 2:01 PM onifre has replied
 Message 230 by WarriorArchangel, posted 03-04-2013 9:33 AM onifre has not replied

  
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Message 2 of 316 (683342)
12-09-2012 8:24 PM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(5)
Message 3 of 316 (683346)
12-09-2012 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


What hurts US Healthcare?
What hurts the US Healthcare system is the heresy that health care, education, safety, utilities and news reporting should be profit centers.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 4 of 316 (683349)
12-09-2012 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


I continue to believe that the over weight, unhealthy people living in the US (that includes people of all race, gender, and income bracket) are the main source of the difficulties.
Well, maybe some data will shed light.
It's not so much that we're a nation of fatty-fats; its that we pay doctors too much and have socialized medicine formed out of a risk pool solely composed of those who have the highest health care expenditures, which also happens to be an increasing portion of society:
Increasing obesity of Americans doesn't help, but the vast majority of our health care dollars are spent to doctors on behalf of seniors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-09-2012 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2012 10:18 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 8 by Coragyps, posted 12-10-2012 8:57 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 12-10-2012 2:51 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 5 of 316 (683359)
12-09-2012 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


Partially true. Not letter to President, but a Letter to Editor. Minor changes.
Fact Check: Dr. Starner Jones Asks 'Why Pay for the Care of the Careless?' | Snopes.com

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-09-2012 7:40 PM onifre has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 6 of 316 (683360)
12-09-2012 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
12-09-2012 8:48 PM


It's not so much that we're a nation of fatty-fats; its that we pay doctors too much
Do not lump all doctors into the same boat. There are a number of specialties that make obscene money, but others that do not.
I am familiar with a local Family medicine doctor. She finished school with almost 200k in student loan debt. She makes just about 200k but works 70-90 hours a week. As well as clinic work the docs here cover the emergency room. I do not think she is overpayed.
She is going to start a new job at a community health clinic in Duluth next month. Her hours will drop to about 50, but her pay will drop by about 50k.
Now the radiologist that works 20-30 hours a week reading xrays and makes 500k+. Yes he is overpayed. The way the whole system is structured is fucked up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 8:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 7 of 316 (683362)
12-09-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


I continue to believe that the over weight, unhealthy people living in the US (that includes people of all race, gender, and income bracket) are the main source of the difficulties.
I'm pretty sure that is false.
Where are the problems?
Firstly, our current system of fee for service with insurance sets a lot of bad incentives. I'm not talking of patient incentives. I am talking of physician incentives. The system encourages them to provide unnecessary care, and bill the insurance companies for it.
Secondly, we already have a system of socialized medicine - about the worst kind of socialized medicine imaginable. Anybody who gets sick can go to an emergency room and be treated with the most expensive kind of treatment, and the bill is paid by the taxpayer or by other patients, if the sick individual cannot afford to pay.
I'm not a big fan of Obama care. I would have preferred a single payer system. But it should be a step toward rationalizing this mess, toward coming up with better incentives and encouraging people to keep healthy instead of relying on the emergency room.
Getting back to your overweight - I still see that as a bad diagnosis. Our problem is that we are pretty healthy, so that most people live long enough to die of degenerative diseases of old age which are expensive to treat. If everyone instead quickly dropped dead of a heart attack in their 50s, the costs would go down.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-09-2012 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by onifre, posted 12-10-2012 2:58 PM nwr has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 316 (683400)
12-10-2012 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
12-09-2012 8:48 PM


You are correct, crash - it's us old farts screwing up the system! As they say, "old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill."
It's interesting how 20th century health care has created its own monster - we are, indeed, living long enough to really create a burden on that same health care system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 8:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 9 of 316 (683405)
12-10-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
12-09-2012 10:18 PM


I am familiar with a local Family medicine doctor. She finished school with almost 200k in student loan debt. She makes just about 200k but works 70-90 hours a week. As well as clinic work the docs here cover the emergency room. I do not think she is overpayed.
Fair enough. As an aside, though, it sounds like she's overworked, and dangerously so; we know that judgement becomes impaired after about 6-7 hours of the kind of attention one needs to practice medicine. But instead of reflecting that, we allow doctors to work insane 20-hour shifts - we demand it, in fact - and that's largely the result of there not being enough doctors.
Why aren't there enough doctors? There aren't enough medical schools. Incidentally, that's also the reason your doctor friend graduated with 200k in loans; the cartelized medical school system can afford to demand that kind of tuition. Doctors in other countries don't graduate with that kind of debt and as a result, don't need to work themselves to death (making potentially fatal mistakes after the 10th hour of their shift) and don't need to be paid an exorbitant 200k a year.
The result of the conditions you describe your friend working under are exactly what I would expect - our doctors are the highest-paid of any nation, but they make the most mistakes.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2012 11:39 AM crashfrog has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 316 (683410)
12-10-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
12-10-2012 10:26 AM


Incidentally, that's also the reason your doctor friend graduated with 200k in loans; the cartelized medical school system can afford to demand that kind of tuition.
Medical school is expensive, but only about 1/3 of the typical school loan is for tuition. The typical student starts accumulating school debt turing undergraduate school. Can't blame that on medical schools.
The overwhelming bulk of all school loans including medical school is living expenses, and some of that is from students leaving exorbitantly.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2012 10:26 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 11 of 316 (683422)
12-10-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


I continue to believe that the over weight, unhealthy people living in the US (that includes people of all race, gender, and income bracket) are the main source of the difficulties.
As I showed you in a previous thread on this same subject, the obesity rate in the UK is nearly the same as the US, and yet they pay half as much per capita for health care in the UK as compared to the US. The reason for the massive cost of health care in the US is not obese people. It is the system of how we pay for health care that is the problem.
Anyone care to enlighten me on this? Perhaps we can even touch on whether or not there is an issue with people believe the black community are the biggest burden on the government.
The first thing we can do is keep non-emergencies out of the emergency room. A visit to a primary doc is a fraction of the cost for an emergency room visit. We can try to limit abuse of these programs, but I think we will all agree that we will never get rid of all the abuse. The next best thing is to limit the damage from that abuse.
Under the ACA, people will be buying subsidized insurance which is only going to put fuel on the fire. This isn't going to get fixed until we have a single payer system. Period. Insurance companies will continue to collude with hospitals to keep prices high. On top of that, now insurance companies have no incentive to keep their premiums down since they will get money to subsidize premiums.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-09-2012 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by onifre, posted 12-10-2012 3:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 12 of 316 (683423)
12-10-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
12-10-2012 11:39 AM


The overwhelming bulk of all school loans including medical school is living expenses, and some of that is from students leaving exorbitantly.
Bullshit. My wife graduated with over $150k in medical school loans and did not live exorbitantly. Medical school was about 20k per year tuition alone. There were about 5k in additional fees.
The student also has to live. How much do you think a student should pay to live for a year? 200K in costs for 4 years of medical school is not exorbitant. My wife worked parttime during her first year but had to stop after that. The time commitment for school was to much.
Then after medical school she made 40k per year during residency, while her loans were due. $8500 of her pay per year went towards paying loans.
ABE
Medical school is expensive, but only about 1/3 of the typical school loan is for tuition.
Any source for this?
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 12-10-2012 11:39 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 12-11-2012 10:24 AM Theodoric has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 13 of 316 (683428)
12-10-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
12-10-2012 11:39 AM


The overwhelming bulk of all school loans including medical school is living expenses
That may be, but since medical schools require medical students to do real medical work at "teaching" hospitals in addition to their coursework, work for which they pay rather than are paid for, and since the requirement to do this negative-wage work is so enormous that medical students aren't able to have a second job by which to cover living expenses, the fact that loans are primarily composed of a student's living expenses is still the medical school's fault.
Again, our doctors are being overworked in part because hospitals and medical schools can get away with overworking them, and in part because there's actually too much work to go around for the number of doctors and medical students we have. An increase in the number of medical students would solve these problems.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(3)
Message 14 of 316 (683430)
12-10-2012 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-09-2012 7:40 PM


The Personal Responsibility Paradox
Oni quotes writes:
I contend that our nation's "health care crisis" is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a "crisis of culture", a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one's self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance.
It is a culture based on the irresponsible credo that "I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me".
If we follow the logic of this we should find that those nations with the most comprehensive and generous universal publicly funded healthcare should promote the least personal responsibility in their citizens and thus have the worst health problems.
Similarly we should also find that those nations which have the least generous publicly funded healthcare should have the most personally responsible citizens and thus the healthiest citizens.
Yet we find fat Americans and healthy Scandanavians.........
How do you explain this apparent paradox?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-09-2012 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 15 of 316 (683431)
12-10-2012 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
12-09-2012 8:48 PM


Increasing obesity of Americans doesn't help, but the vast majority of our health care dollars are spent to doctors on behalf of seniors.
But don't seniors have their own healthcare system provided by the government?
I've always seen seniors in their own catagory, while the rest of those not retired are in a separate pool of healthcare.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2012 8:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2012 3:49 PM onifre has replied
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 12-27-2012 2:37 AM onifre has replied

  
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