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Author Topic:   Green and less dependent on "grid" corporations ...
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 43 (697053)
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


One of the reasons my posting has dropped off is that I am renovating my house and have a number of subprojects in the works.
Currently working on completely revamped second floor, having gutted out what was there before. New stairs, new roof rafters (from the inside), similar room layout but nice large full bathroom (at the expense of one bedroom), higher ceilings, and hot water radiant heat in the floors.
Last year I did radiant floor heat in the renovated kitchen and the renovated dining room -- and it is wonderful.
I've decided to "go green" in stages to facilitate conversion and ease load on the pocketbook ...
The new heat upstairs will be controlled by 12vdc pumps turned on by the thermostats, one for each room. The pumps will run off a 12v deep cycle battery that will be kept topped up by a trickle-charger. This gives me heat if there is a power outage, and if it is extended, I can recharge from the car. The next stage will be to add photo-voltaic cells to the roof.
And I can convert to a gas hot water heater to replace the boiler -- it operates without AC to turn on and off, and it is hot enough to use with the radiant heating (boiler water has to be mixed with return to get good operating temperatures) -- so the system is simpler. Plus the water heater can be wrapped with insulation to improve efficiency.
With increasing population = increased electrical demand, plus aging infrastructure of the power grid system, plus corporate emphasis on profit over service, I expect blackouts to increase, so getting more independent seems practical.
Lights I can also power with 12vdc, but the big AC demand will remain the refrigerator, the dishwasher, and the clothes washer and dryer (albeit this latter can be reduce in use with a clothes line and using the "solar drying machine" ...), so I may stay attached to the grid, and over time increase solar cells so that I give as well as take, and - hopefully - balance out in the end.
I also have a venturi sump pump that can use city water to pump out the sump -- it's all mechanical, so it will operate in a power outage -- pumping out 2 gallons for every gallon of city water. This is set up as a backup to operate when the regular sump pump fails (or is overburdened).
Anyone else doing this?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 04-20-2013 8:33 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3 by Dogmafood, posted 04-21-2013 5:22 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-23-2013 12:18 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 15 by frako, posted 01-04-2014 6:54 AM RAZD has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 2 of 43 (697057)
04-20-2013 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


RAZD writes:
Anyone else doing this?
We hope to do this SOON. But we cannot right away. SOON, I swear.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2013 7:50 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 3 of 43 (697087)
04-21-2013 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


Anyone else doing this?
It is on my list right behind the defeat of procrastination.
Insulation insulation insulation. Seal it up tight and then keep a window open so you don't asphyxiate.
I keep a wood stove going all winter mostly because I just love to see the fire burning. Even the sight of the smoke from the outside makes me feel warmer. The process of collecting wood helps to keep me in shape and is an excellent tool for the education of children. I am not sure how green it is but it sure feels good. Certainly not an option for everyone.
I really like the idea of heating with your hot water heater. Sized correctly, it will easily meet both your heating and hot water needs. It is also easy to tie in other sources like solar and geothermal.
I think that the key to efficient energy use is storage. The average house in Canada used 106 GJ of energy in 2007. There is 106 GJ of energy that falls in the form of sunlight on 20 m2 in a year. Assuming that you get 4hrs of full sun/day and 106 GJ = 29 444 kwh and sunshine = 1kw/m2. So if we could stick that energy in a bottle until we needed it then Bob's your uncle.
The best bottle that I can see is the grid. Couple this with localized energy production and you have a highly efficient and secure set up that resists both grid corporations and the impact of grid failure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2013 7:50 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2013 11:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 4 of 43 (697186)
04-22-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dogmafood
04-21-2013 5:22 AM


and wind ...
Insulation insulation insulation. Seal it up tight and then keep a window open so you don't asphyxiate.
This is one of the problems with modern building construction. Large buildings recirculate air inside, complete with all the germs brought in by sick people, guaranteeing that the air is not healthy.
What you need is an air exchange system that filters incoming air to remove pollutants and exchange temperature with expelled air, and treat it to a comfortable humidity.
I really like the idea of heating with your hot water heater. Sized correctly, it will easily meet both your heating and hot water needs. It is also easy to tie in other sources like solar and geothermal.
And your tank operates as a storage system to hold hot water overnight. With solar cells to power 12vdc circulation pumps and solar collectors to heat water you have an independent, non-polluting, no operating cost heating system.
You can also invest in 12vdc wind generators (used a lot on sailboats) to power your dc system\batteries and give you redundancy\backup power. I may try this before the photo-voltaic cells as it is more off the shelf and easy to install.
The best bottle that I can see is the grid. Couple this with localized energy production and you have a highly efficient and secure set up that resists both grid corporations and the impact of grid failure.
Agreed, you balance outs your peak demands (clothes dryer for instance) with the power you send back to the grid. Done universally your neighborhood could replace the need for additional power generation stations as well as lower your electrical costs.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dogmafood, posted 04-21-2013 5:22 AM Dogmafood has replied

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 5 of 43 (697273)
04-22-2013 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
04-22-2013 11:29 AM


Re: and wind ...
And your tank operates as a storage system to hold hot water overnight.
You likely would want more storage if possible depending on all of your variables. Insulated 55 gallon drums full of iron pellets, ideally buried in the ground. Use a solar furnace (much cheaper than panels or evacuated tubes) to bring propylene glycol up to 170C and heat the pellets and then circulate to a heat exchanger in your hot water tank. You can buy them ready made.
I think that this would give you the highest heat storage capacity for the least space without a pressure vessel or melted salt or something. Adds a little to your control side and glycol is poisonous. You could just use a barrel beside your hot water tank and skip the glycol but you lose a lot as it would max out at 100C.
The plus side is that all of this uses really simple, robust and inexpensive low end technology to create a heat sink with huge capacity.
You can also invest in 12vdc wind generators (used a lot on sailboats) to power your dc system\batteries and give you redundancy\backup power.
All depends on your needs I guess but electric batteries still suck and are way too expensive and short lived and toxic. Hard to get away from.
If you could throw in a Sterling motor driven generator running off of the solar furnace after your barrels are up to temp and send it to the grid. In fact you could probably heat the glycol with the waste heat from the motor. Of course a grid connection is pretty expensive to set up and Sterling motors aren't nearly as available as they should be. Easy to build though.
Ideally, you could store all the energy as heat and convert it to electricity when you need it for back up or otherwise send it to the grid.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 43 (697309)
04-23-2013 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


A couple I know has recently built a new house about thirty miles from the city that is "completely" of the grid. All of their electricity comes from solar, with a small boost from wind. (Oddly enough, even Saskatchewan isn't windy enough to provide a reliable power source by itself.) The only phones they have are cellular and their Internet access is also wireless.
They are quite close to a natural gas line but it would have cost thousands to bring it a few hundred yards to the house, so they use propane for heat - with radiant floor heating.
They've been in the house for two winters with no serious problems that I know of.

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 7 of 43 (705984)
09-04-2013 10:06 PM


Moose's little place in the woods
Quite a while back I mentioned some of this in the Private Admin Forum. Now I shall come out of the closet (actually, my house is basically a closet).
I live in a well built, well insulated, one room, 16 foot by 10 foot building. I have no connections to any grid. I haul water in 1 gallon jugs, I haul my electricity in a 12 volt battery, and I heat with wood.
Well, I do have a propane heater, but it conked out a couple of years ago so I'm just going with just wood heat. It was 99% wood heat even when the propane heater was working. I do have a propane 4 burner stove/oven.
In the winter, my standard indoor temperature is 80 degrees F. Comfy, as it is a dry heat.
No land-line phone. I do have a cell phone, but my home reception ranges from poor to none. So I don't bother even having it turned on.
Anyway, recently I got a screaming good deal on a solar electric system. $350 for 2 panels, the solar charger controller, a 24volt/1500 watt charger/inverter, and 8 x 6 volt deep cycle batteries. The batteries are about 7 or 8 years old, but in their prime they would have a total battery storage rating of about 1400 amp-hours. I've been SLOWLY coming up with the plan and the construction to get it on line.
I've charged and equalized the batteries at work. There a 4 batteries in series, in parallel with another 4 batteries in series. Doing the voltage and acid specific gravity measurements, I've discovered that one battery has 1 very bad cell, and 1 battery has a little bit bad cell. So right now it looks like I'm going to go with just 4 batteries.
Moose
Correction:
total battery storage rating of about 1400 amp-hours
I didn't really know what I was talking about there. I was thinking 175 amp-hours times 8 batteries - WRONG.
One of the batteries is (it turns out) about 200 amp-hours. 4 of those in series are still 200 amp-hours (although it is x4 the wattage). If I had 2 200 amp-hour batteries (or series of batteries) in parallel, then I would have 400 amp hours.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Correction at bottom.

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-05-2013 9:11 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 43 (706017)
09-05-2013 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Minnemooseus
09-04-2013 10:06 PM


Re: Moose's little place in the woods
Do you live alone? How do you get online?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-04-2013 10:06 PM Minnemooseus has replied

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 9 of 43 (706140)
09-06-2013 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


RAZD writes:
Anyone else doing this?
Not me.
Not that I don't want to, just that the problem isn't a high priority and my limited resources are better focused elsewhere right now.
I do, however, have a new-ish home with lots of insulation and efficient stuffs in it.
Even the efficient stuffs that look cool but don't really do much like the heat-reclaiming-from-drain-water thingy in my basement.
The drain water goes down this 6ft vertical tube, and the city water wraps itself around this tube in a coil before it enters the water heater.
This takes the heat from the drain water, and heats up the city water before it enters the water heater.
Heat transfer can be as much as 95% while in action.
The problem, of course... is getting it "in action."
In order for the system to actually work... you have to be draining hot water while also have room in your hot water tank to fill up from the city source.
This generally only happens (in my house) while I take a shower for about 5-10min. each day.
...but the water heater installers had a special going on when my house was built and it was installed for free
The house has double-insulation (regular 'pink-stuff' in the walls, plus a layer of pink pressed-styrofoam-looking stuff) and a layer of insulation below the foundation (reducing heat-loss out the basement floor).
I moved from a 1250 sq. ft. bungalow without this into a 1750 sq. ft. bungalow with this... and my heating/cooling bills are either equivalent or slightly cheaper.
I find this more-insulation stuff (and sealing up the house doors/windows/ports in a well-built fashion) to be the best "easy thing" that can be done to make an efficient house.
My house is basically in a general city subdivision on city water and city electricity and such.
Oh, and the toilet tanks are insulated as well (simple layer of styrofoam-like-stuff, I think).
I'm not really sure what this does, but the installer guy thought it was cool when he pointed it out to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2013 7:50 PM RAZD has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 10 of 43 (706141)
09-06-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
09-06-2013 12:33 PM


Humidity
Oh, and the toilet tanks are insulated as well (simple layer of styrofoam-like-stuff, I think).
I'm not really sure what this does, but the installer guy thought it was cool when he pointed it out to me.
I'm thinkin' this is to stop weeping when the humidity is high.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 43 (715323)
01-03-2014 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
09-06-2013 12:33 PM


moving forward
So I am moving forward with my long term plan.
Have pex radiant floor heat now installed in all but two rooms, one under reconstruction (upstairs bathroom, all new layout) and one held for another year.
12vdc pumps set up and operational, 12v deep cycle battery currently charged by trickle charger, but eventually from solar cells or wind gens (would have been put to the stress test last night ... wow was it windy).
Next summer the boiler can be replaced by a gas waterheater.
Also have the water powered sump venturi pump up and running ... and it's already been put to the test, it was fantastic. It can empty the sump while I run the hose into it at full blast!
We have the first big storm of the year. No power outages (it was so cold its all powder).
(regular 'pink-stuff' in the walls, plus a layer of pink pressed-styrofoam-looking stuff)
Yes, I plan to wrap the outside with foam insulation when I go to shingle it next summer, as that will also help seal draft locations (omnipresent with an old house - now confirmed at 1795 build)
Oh, and the toilet tanks are insulated as well (simple layer of styrofoam-like-stuff, I think).
I'm not really sure what this does, but the installer guy thought it was cool when he pointed it out to me.
If nothing else it would eliminate 'sweating' condensation in the summer.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 01-03-2014 9:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 12 of 43 (715326)
01-03-2014 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
01-03-2014 6:50 PM


Re: moving forward
...now confirmed at 1795 build
Nice!
I'll have to send you a coffee mug that I have that says, "My life is in ruins!"
Lol
(I'm an archaeologist.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2014 6:50 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 43 (715335)
01-03-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
01-03-2014 9:18 PM


Re: moving forward
I know

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 01-03-2014 9:18 PM Coyote has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 14 of 43 (715336)
01-03-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
01-03-2014 11:28 PM


Re: moving forward
I also have one that says, "Nobody knows the rubbles I've seen."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2014 11:28 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 15 of 43 (715342)
01-04-2014 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-20-2013 7:50 PM


And I can convert to a gas hot water heater to replace the boiler
U might think about putting a collector on your roof to it can shave up to 80% of your water heating bills off. The only cost you have is exchanging antifreeze every 5 years. But it depends on your weather conditions so ask someone who knows more about this stuff then i do.
I've decided to "go green" in stages to facilitate conversion and ease load on the pocketbook ...
Isolations and windows. I halved my heating costs by exchanging my windows for top of the line shit.
Lights I can also power with 12vdc, but the big AC demand will remain the refrigerator, the dishwasher, and the clothes washer and dryer
If you plan to change some of those out make sure you go for A or better energy quality. Dunno if you Americans have those tags on electrical devices though ?

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
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