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Author Topic:   Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 169 (709003)
10-17-2013 12:21 AM


Bs'd

Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about their messiah.

However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.

If Christians disagree, please give some proof from the prophet Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Thanks in advance,

Eliyahu


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-17-2013 12:44 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 169 (709004)
10-17-2013 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
10-17-2013 12:21 AM


Need more content
However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.

Please quote the relevant Biblical text, and do a little discussion of that content.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 10-17-2013 12:21 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 10-18-2013 6:00 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 3 of 169 (709005)
10-18-2013 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
10-17-2013 12:44 AM


Re: Need more content
Bs'd

Christianity claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about their messiah.

However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.

If Christians disagree, please give some proof from the prophet Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

I will start by giving some proof it speaks about the people of Israel:

Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:

Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me

Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servants sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.

Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

There is more where this comes from, but with these you can catch it in one sentence.

So anyway, the servant of God is clearly identified in Isaiah (and in other prophets) as ISRAEL.

And an interesting point is that the messiah is NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Tanach, ever referred to as "servant of God".

.

.

And when we look at the context of this text, we see that it speaks about ISRAEL. No messiah to be found in the context.

So also the context proves it speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.

.

.

And there is of course the conceptual proof:

The concept of God who must let Himself be killed by His creatures before He can forgive them, is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.

But, if we fill in Israel as the servant, what we get is the following:

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." We also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.

So what we see here, is that the Jews were punished by God for the sins of the Jews.

And that just happens to be a concept which is all over the Tanach.

.

.

And now: What proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach do the Christians have that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

Absolutely totally nothing.

Glad to be of service,

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-17-2013 12:44 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 8:29 AM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 10:24 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12591
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 4 of 169 (709007)
10-19-2013 8:00 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 5 of 169 (709013)
10-19-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eliyahu
10-18-2013 6:00 AM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53

Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:

Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me

Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servants sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.

Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

There is more where this comes from, but with these you can catch it in one sentence.

So anyway, the servant of God is clearly identified in Isaiah (and in other prophets) as ISRAEL.

And an interesting point is that the messiah is NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Tanach, ever referred to as "servant of God".


.
I'll take up your challenge Eliyahu. As I get a little more time today.

First of all you start the debate concerning Isaiah 53 and then go to other portions of Isaiah to prove that other entities can serve as the servant of God. That is not what I think the argument is. The issue is chapter 53.

In the book of Isaiah you indeed do have these entities serving as the servant of Jehovah -

1.) Isaiah the prophet himself

2.) Cyrus the king of Persia

3.) Israel as a nation

4.) The Suffering Servant which is Messiah.

While I have no yet quoted any verses yet, I present the outline of my objection. Chapter 53 concerns the Messiah the Suffering Servant.

Before I demonstrate this I think it would be good to indicate that many Christians do understand Christ as the Suffering Servant in chapter 53 because apostles taught that way from the beginning of the Christian church. And they most likely received this interpretation of Jesus Christ Himself.

Specifics will follow latter. However, that Isaiah the prophet or Cyrus king of Persia or even Israel the nation are sometimes spoken of as God's servant, elsewhere in the book of Isaiah, well receive no disagreement from me.

All three other referents to God's servant are types of Christ in one aspect or another.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 10-18-2013 6:00 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM jaywill has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 169 (709028)
10-19-2013 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eliyahu
10-18-2013 6:00 AM


Re: Need more content
EliYahu writes:

However the plain text of Isaiah clearly shows it speaks about the nation Israel, and not about the messiah.

I think that you are absolutely right. That text is about the people Israel. However, as a Christian, I understand that Jesus was the perfect Jew and became the sacrificial Lamb or scapegoat and stood in for all of Israel

In the Jewish Scriptures there was to be a messiah or anointed one that would come and lead the people against their enemies. There was also a thread of the idea that in some way Yahweh would return to His people and be their King. There is the Exodus theme which involved the suffering of the people but that they would ultimately come out the other side into the land of milk and honey. I believe that Jesus combined all of these themes and in some way understood Yahweh as fulfilling these themes through Him, and of course as a Christian I believe that God confirmed that message with the resurrection.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Eliyahu, posted 10-18-2013 6:00 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:32 PM GDR has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 7 of 169 (709033)
10-19-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
10-19-2013 8:29 AM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd

First of all you start the debate concerning Isaiah 53 and then go to other portions of Isaiah to prove that other entities can serve as the servant of God. That is not what I think the argument is. The issue is chapter 53.

But in chapter 53 it is not outright mentioned who is the servant, therefore we have to look in other parts of Isaiah, to see who is the servant.

And there, many times, ISRAEL is called "the servant of God".

The messiah in the whole Tanach exactly ZERO times.

In the book of Isaiah you indeed do have these entities serving as the servant of Jehovah -

1.) Isaiah the prophet himself

2.) Cyrus the king of Persia

3.) Israel as a nation

And Israel is the most frequent called the servant of God.

4.) The Suffering Servant which is Messiah.

Wrong. That is an article of faith, without the slightest proof in the Tanach.

While I have no yet quoted any verses yet, I present the outline of my objection. Chapter 53 concerns the Messiah the Suffering Servant.

Before I demonstrate this I think it would be good to indicate that many Christians do understand Christ as the Suffering Servant in chapter 53 because apostles taught that way from the beginning of the Christian church. And they most likely received this interpretation of Jesus Christ Himself.

Specifics will follow latter. However, that Isaiah the prophet or Cyrus king of Persia or even Israel the nation are sometimes spoken of as God's servant, elsewhere in the book of Isaiah, well receive no disagreement from me.

All three other referents to God's servant are types of Christ in one aspect or another.

I know what the Christians believe. You can believe anything you want.

The Muslims believe that the suffering servant is Muhammed. You can believe anything you want, also that you are abduct by little green men.

However, the Christians, like the Muslims, don't have a shred of evidence from the Tanach to back up their story.

The proof for the servant being Israel is overwhelming.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 8:29 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 2:01 PM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 13 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:17 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:42 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 8 of 169 (709034)
10-19-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by GDR
10-19-2013 10:24 AM


The suffering servant is ISRAEL
I think that you are absolutely right. That text is about the people Israel. However, as a Christian, I understand that Jesus was the perfect Jew and became the sacrificial Lamb or scapegoat and stood in for all of Israel

In the Jewish Scriptures there was to be a messiah or anointed one that would come and lead the people against their enemies. There was also a thread of the idea that in some way Yahweh would return to His people and be their King. There is the Exodus theme which involved the suffering of the people but that they would ultimately come out the other side into the land of milk and honey. I believe that Jesus combined all of these themes and in some way understood Yahweh as fulfilling these themes through Him, and of course as a Christian I believe that God confirmed that message with the resurrection.

Bs'd

Just don't loose sight of the fact that your believes have no foundation whatsoever in the Hebrew Bible, and that they go against the plain literal meaning of Isaiah.

What Christianity does, as usual, is to rip a piece of text which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and present it as a "messianic prophecy", which it clearly is not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 10:24 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 10-19-2013 12:51 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 9 of 169 (709035)
10-19-2013 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:32 PM


Re: The suffering servant is ISRAEL
Eliyahu writes:

Just don't loose sight of the fact that your believes have no foundation whatsoever in the Hebrew Bible, and that they go against the plain literal meaning of Isaiah.

It depends on how it is understood. It is my belief that what was written about Israel was fulfilled, not in the way that was expected, but the one perfect Jew which was Jesus.

I know we aren't going to agree, but I just wanted to give you my Christian perspective.

Eliyahu writes:

What Christianity does, as usual, is to rip a piece of text which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever out of context, and present it as a "messianic prophecy", which it clearly is not.

I agree. It is not a messianic prophesy and that it is about the people Israel.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:32 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 10 of 169 (709036)
10-19-2013 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Before I continue, a question:
What does "Bs'd" mean ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 2:07 PM jaywill has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 11 of 169 (709037)
10-19-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jaywill
10-19-2013 2:01 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd

The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic term "ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of heaven".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 2:01 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 2:54 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 12 of 169 (709040)
10-19-2013 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 2:07 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bs'd

The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic term "ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of heaven".

Thankyou. Indeed, with the help of heaven.

And I will reply some shortly, with the help of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, from Christ.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 2:07 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 13 of 169 (709045)
10-19-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53

But in chapter 53 it is not outright mentioned who is the servant, therefore we have to look in other parts of Isaiah, to see who is the servant.

And there, many times, ISRAEL is called "the servant of God".

The passages concerning the Suffering Servant start with chapter 52:13 and continue through to include chapter 53.

The marred appearance of the Suffering Servant in 52:14 links Him to His intense persecution and being crushed in chapter 53 - "Indeed My Servant will act wisely and will prosper. He will be exalted and lifted up and very high. Even as many were astonished at Him - His visage was marred more than that of any man, And His form more than that of the sons of men -

So will He surprise many nations; Kings will shut their mouths because of Him; For what had not been recounted to them they will see, and what they had not heard of they will contemplate." (52:13-15)

The surprise is that One tortured, crucified, marred with agonizing inflictions, and killed will amazingly rise from the dead to be King of kings and Lord of lords over all the earth. Of course both Isaiah the prophet and Israel as a nation have suffered. But the following passages clarify that the prophecy is speaking of neither of those two.

Isaiah 53:2 - " ... He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him."

Israel as a land is called "the beautiful land" (Daniel 8:9; 11:41) . This does not fit Israel having "no attracting" . Zion is called "the perfection of beauty" (Psalm 50:2). At least geographically these superlative descriptions don't match a place or person of whom it says \[b\]"He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him, Nor beautiful appearance that we should desire Him."

Suppose the beauty is pertaining strictly to PEOPLE and not the LAND of Israel ? This doesn't work because "we" should pertain to the Jewish people. And they would be attractive and desirable to themselves. How could the Jews not be desirable to themselves as a nation ? The more reasonable interpretation is that an INDIVIDUAL is the one being spoken of in verse 2.

Not only so, Israel cannot atone for her own sins. The suffering of Israel is historic. And Isaiah was said to have been sawed in two when murdered. But Isaiah is included in the "we" throughout the chapter.

"He was despised; and we did not esteem Him." (verse 3) . It hardly makes sense that Isaiah is speaking of himself.

And it makes no sense that Israel as a people did not esteem Israel as a people.

That Israel despised Jesus, that makes sense for the majority of Jews.

That Israel did not esteem Jesus Christ also makes historical sense.

It makes no sense that Israel is meant where it says - "Surely He has born our sicknesses, And carried our sorrows."

The substitute of ANOTHER bearing our sicknesses and sorrows is intended. It is less likely that the passage means Israel has born her own sicknesses and her own sorrows in some substitutionary way. Israel has suffered no doubt. But the passage is concerning One unworthy to bear who has borne nonetheless for Israel in a substitutionary way.

This is proved by verse 6 - "Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

The Isaiah iniquity is included in "us all" . So how can Isaiah be speaking of himself?

And the force of the passage is that One unworthy to bear iniquity is bearing it on behalf of others -

"We all like sheep have gone astray; each of us has turned aside to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." (v.6)

The One on whom God has caused the iniquity to fall must in contrast be one:

1.) who has NOT gone astray.

2.) who has not turned to His own way but has followed Jehovah God faithfully.

3.) one who is without iniquity.

It makes no sense that sinful Israel has in some substitutionary way borne her OWN iniquity.

This makes no sense for sinful Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5) who said -

"Woe is me, for I am finished! For I am a man of unclean lips, And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell ..."

That being the case it makes sense for Isaiah to include himself in the phrase - "WE all like sheep have gone astray, And Jehovah hs caused the iniquity of US ALL to fall on Him."

What sense does it make to say that God has caused the iniquity of US ALL to fall on US ALL ?

But to be an offering for sin (v.10) it makes sense that the iniquity of US ALL has been caused to fall on ANOTHER in a propitiatory way. This is the Messiah Jesus.

"God was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He makes Himself an offering for sin ..." (v.10a)

We may say Israel has at times been crushed in persecution.
We may also say the prophet Isaiah was "crushed" in his final martyrdom.
But these sufferings were not as an offering for the sins of others.
They could not be an offering for their own sins.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 proves that national suffering for Israel's own sins was in no way a substitutionary offering.

Appeals to the suffering of the Jewish people are moving. But those sufferings were not for an offering for the sins of others let alone an offering for their own sins. The one upon whom the crushing falls bears it as a SUBSTITUTE. And that matches the crucifixion of Jesus for the establishment of the new covenant in His innocent blood -

As He taught on the night that He was betrayed to be crushed at Calvary - "For this [cup] is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

I will stop here for tonight. But I close by saying that the New Testament is the oracles of God. It is the authoritative word of God. No more than a Jew regards Deuteronomy as a faulty, error prone commentary on the books of Exodus or Numbers do we Christians regard the twenty seven books of the New Testament to be a mere human commentary on the Tanach. It with authoritative finality that the Apostle Peter equates Isaiah 53:6 with the offering of Jesus on the cross -

First Peter 2:25 - "For you were like sheep being led astray, but you have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

And this Christ Peter says - "Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth; Who being reviled did not revile in return. He did not threaten but kept committing all to Him who judges righteously. Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sin, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed." (v.22-24)

Peter's utterance is filled with references to Isaiah 53. And we Christians do not regard this as the faulty opinion of an erroneous commentary. Rather it is the infallible word of God as Exodus or Deuteronomy or Isaiah is also the word of God.

More to follow latter.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 53 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 14 of 169 (709046)
10-19-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 12:27 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
And Israel is the most frequent called the servant of God.

The issue is not how frequently Israel is called the servant of God.
This does not negate that Isaiah and Cyrus the king of Persia are ALSO refered to God's servant.

And Isaiah 53 is an exception to the many places where Israel is the servant of God.

Wrong. That is an article of faith, without the slightest proof in the Tanach.

Of course it is a matter of faith. Contrary to what Isaiah 53:1 says, God HAS granted mercy that SOME have believed the report.

You are simply among those who have no believed the report because of no faith -

"WHO has believed our report ? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed ?

Yes it is a matter of faith and of revelation. God has had mercy to reveal to some that in Jesus Christ the "arm of Jehovah has been revealed."


I know what the Christians believe. You can believe anything you want.

With or without your permission the arm of Jehovah has been revealed to us and we have believed the report of Isaiah 53.


The Muslims believe that the suffering servant is Muhammed. You can believe anything you want, also that you are abduct by little green men.

But is really ridiculous is that you would regard Israel as being an offering for sin on behalf of Israel. That is contrary to the whole tone of a substitutionary offering for sin provided by One who is innocent and righteous.

That is the characteristic of the offering in Isaiah 53.


The proof for the servant being Israel is overwhelming.

No it is not overwhelming. And I will continue with reasons that Jesus Christ is by far the more logical interpretation of the prophecy of chapter 53.

"By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the manuy righteous. And He will bear their iniquities." (v.11)

The bearing One Himself has to be without sins. If Israel is righteous then there is no need for them to be MADE righteous. Even less sense is made to say that righteous Israel bears the sins of unrighteous Israel making her righteous.

Rather a righteous Messiah bearing the sins of many that by knowledge of Him they might be justified and made righteous, fits the facts of the new covenant.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 12:27 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 11:51 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 16 by Eliyahu, posted 10-20-2013 12:08 AM jaywill has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 15 of 169 (709050)
10-19-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jaywill
10-19-2013 10:42 PM


Re: The Focus is Chapter 53
Bsd

Behold, my servant shall act wisely; You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?

When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.

his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind

When did that happen to JC?

a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness When exactly was JC sick?

Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Wasnt JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;

He didnt open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22

When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: Why did I forsake myself?

At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34

He didnt open his mouth?

for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them

This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. The plague was upon THEM. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.

The Hebrew word translated as upon them is lamo The same word lamo is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."

Deut 32:32; and THEIR clusters are bitter. Literally: For them are bitter clusters.

Deut 32: 35 and their destiny will overtake THEM

Deut 33:2; "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;

The word lamo which means for them or upon them is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.

Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due? Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.

But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing due in verse 8.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence

Done no violence? So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. John 2:15

A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60

He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.

And with the rich in his death The Hebrew word for death is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.

And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.

Yet it was the will of J-H-W-H to crush him; he has put him to grief; So it was the will of God to crush Himself???

when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.

He shall prolong his days
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesnt, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didnt God die when he was 30?

when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?

It should be clear to everybody that JC is not an option for the servant of Isaiah 53.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 10-19-2013 10:42 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jaywill, posted 10-20-2013 3:23 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
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