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Author Topic:   Feedback learning and generalization in robotics takes a step forward.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 66 (710520)
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


There is an interesting robot created by Cornell that functions based on feedback from humans and then adds generalization on its own documented here. This is an important step as we continue to move robots into the service sector and replace humans doing the jobs.
So what should we do with all the checkout folk, waiters, waitresses, counter clerks and other folk whose function gets surplussed?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by nwr, posted 11-06-2013 2:32 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-06-2013 3:11 PM jar has replied
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 Message 51 by frako, posted 11-13-2013 12:56 PM jar has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 2 of 66 (710528)
11-06-2013 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


Go Robots!
The same thing we did with all the operators who were replaced in the automotive automation industry.
They become operators for building those robots.
Or they become mechanics/maintenance for repairing those robots.
Or they become checkout folk, waiters, waitresses, counter clerks and other folk for businesses who do not use the robots for those functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 10:00 AM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 3 of 66 (710538)
11-06-2013 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


Well, let's see. As I recall the folks that packaged the whale oil from whaling ships when fossil fuels took over moved on to making buggy whips. And when the automobile killed the buggy they moved on to making Edsels and then on to packaging 5.25" floppies. I'm sure those displaced by androids will move on to the next soon-to-be-defunct employment.

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 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 10:00 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 66 (710542)
11-06-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
11-06-2013 1:15 PM


many did not make the transition.
But many displaced workers did not make the transition. The development of trainable robots that can learn and programmable robots that simply repeat the same task is significant. The generalized learning robot and also move on to the next soon to be defunct position as well.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2013 2:51 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 66 (710544)
11-06-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-06-2013 1:46 PM


Re: many did not make the transition.
Then ... we create the leisure society and live happily ever after, while our android butlers bring us margaritas and our sexbots pleasure us with their many mechanical orifices.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 6 of 66 (710545)
11-06-2013 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


So what should we do with all the checkout folk, waiters, waitresses, counter clerks and other folk whose function gets surplussed?
I don't have any easy answers.
I'm sure that there are plenty of socially useful things that these folk could do, and might even want to do. But there's no political will at present.
What we see is that the scientists and engineers who developed the new technology are getting reasonable rewards for that.
Unfortunately, most of the rewards are going to rich fatcats who have opposed any investment in fundamental research throughout their lives.
If we were truly a Christian nation, those rich fatcats would sell what they have and give to the poor. But, instead, they move their assets to off-shore tax havens.
We badly need a new generation of muckraking journalists and social reformers to stir things up.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 66 (710546)
11-06-2013 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-06-2013 1:46 PM


Re: many did not make the transition.
But many displaced workers did not make the transition.
So what did they do, up and die?
Remember the displacement of literally millions of factory/foundry workers from the "rust belt" in the 80's and 90's? I don't recall hearing of mass deaths involving millions of people in the region. They found something to do. No doubt it wasn't into jobs as well paying as they had but they didn't just disappear.
Displacement has always taken place and always will. People are financially and emotionally scarred by such events, but people always adapted and always will. Yes, the vast majority made the transition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 1:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 8 of 66 (710547)
11-06-2013 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


I can see the basic function...
You mention possible replacement careers, but I have an issue with robots replacing humans in one of these areas.
You state,
jar writes:
So what should we do with all the [...] waiters, waitresses,
I did work as a server for 9 years and this is a job that I do not think can be replaced, or should be replaced with robotics. It could happen at some point, but an important aspect in dining out is the ambience and the conversation the server is able to give. Also, many states have such a low minimum wage for serving employees that employers will actually end up paying more to gain access to robotic servers than they would pay to maintain a human serving staff. Another aspect is the randomness that is inherently existent in the food service industry. I can guarantee you that no single night of work in nine years ever went the same as a night that proceeded it. The amount of possible solutions that would need to be programmed into the computer would be immense and would require very in depth reactions.
An example, I worked in a restaurant that had a long slide contained within the restaurant. Children would randomly be going down the slide, and would occasionally get in the way, Plus, there is a dance floor with adults line dancing right next to the slide area. I once was walking a tray and a child jumped off the end of the slide knocking the tray out of my hands. This only hapened once in four years at this restaurant, but the learning curve of the robot would require it to make an adjustment everytime that it passed this slide for any motion visible. This would increase possible errors, for simply a flash of movement that a human server could compensate for on his or her own.
Because of these reasons, I think robotics are a long way off from replacing humans in the area of food service. Of course, I could definitely be incorrect on this, it just seems like too inconsistent of an industry for robotics to serve much purpose in this arena...

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 10:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:21 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 66 (710548)
11-06-2013 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AZPaul3
11-06-2013 2:51 PM


Re: many did not make the transition.
Why would you hear of mass deaths? People die constantly. People also lost homes, families were split apart, pensions disappeared, health care was lost and so sickness became the norm.
The advantage humans have had is that we were the generalists, we had the advantage of being generalists as opposed to specialists and so learned new tasks. The folk working on the line became the folk stocking shelves.
How far can that go on though? When the machines are the generalists but lower cost generalists that do not require fringe benefits what is the fallback position?
Gross National Product may increase while per household income continues to decrease and the gap between rich and poor continues to grow. How far can that go without serious consequences?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2013 2:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2013 3:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 66 (710549)
11-06-2013 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-06-2013 3:11 PM


Re: I can see the basic function...
Did you read the article?
The point is that the Cornell robot is NOT simply programmed but rather taught to learn, to take correction from the people in real time and to then be able to apply what is learned to apply to new situations in a generalized fashion.
I also spent some time in the food service industry and maybe we can swap tales sometime, but start here. Think back to how you learned your jobs, then compare that to what is in the article.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-06-2013 3:11 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-06-2013 4:33 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 11 of 66 (710550)
11-06-2013 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-06-2013 3:12 PM


Re: many did not make the transition.
How far can that go without serious consequences?
Then there will be serious consequences.
There will be hunger, strife, riots, class warfare, revolution,
OR
Society will adapt to avoid as many of those consequences as it wants to avoid.
What did you think would happen? Dr. A's leisure society, instant nirvana for the masses?
As always, hard as it is to accept, you adapt or die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2013 5:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 66 (710553)
11-06-2013 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
11-06-2013 3:31 PM


Re: many did not make the transition.
So how can we avoid or minimize hunger, strife, riots, class warfare, revolution?
Will the pain of hunger, strife, riots, class warfare, revolution be necessary to get the US to adapt to the change?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2013 3:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 13 of 66 (710554)
11-06-2013 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
11-06-2013 3:21 PM


Re: I can see the basic function...
jar writes:
Did you read the article?
Yes, I did read the article, I do think there are many jobs that these robots can be applied to, I just do not see the ability to make it work with servers.
jar writes:
The point is that the Cornell robot is NOT simply programmed but rather taught to learn, to take correction from the people in real time and to then be able to apply what is learned to apply to new situations in a generalized fashion.
Yes, I understood that. However, my point was that serving tables is less about what you learn at the beginning and more about the possible reactions in every single scenario. A robot can definitely learn the basics, but in any fast paced restaurant, the night will run into multiple different scenarios every time, with a huge assortment of possible solutions. A robot can be taught one possibility at a time. Imagine the amount of broken dishes throughout that learning process. As a future restaurant owner, I would rather pay 3.75 an hour to a server and teach them how to make that into 10.00 an hour or more through tips. In fact, the key phrase you used was the robot responds in a generalized manner...that is the exact problem I was pointing out with the passing of the slide, with how many different scenarios could happen there. Even myself as a human could not anticipate the child jumping off and running directly into me, imagine the issues that a robot who is programmed as it goes would run into.
jar writes:
I also spent some time in the food service industry and maybe we can swap tales sometime, but start here. Think back to how you learned your jobs, then compare that to what is in the article.
I get what you are saying, but why would owner's replace cheaper, more adaptable employees with more expensive robots, who can only operate based off instruction? The possibilities of events is astounding and would take far too long to teach every possible scenario to the robot, at least as far as I see it.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 3:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 11-06-2013 4:47 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 66 (710555)
11-06-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-06-2013 4:33 PM


Re: I can see the basic function...
The point of the article is that the robot does not operate only from instructions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-06-2013 4:33 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-06-2013 5:12 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 66 (710556)
11-06-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-06-2013 10:00 AM


Every economic system I can think of is built on the manipulation of human labor. From the slave economies of the ancient world to the feudal economies of the middle ages to the market economies of today.
Your question doesn't just ask what happens to the cashiers, waiters, etc.; but it asks what happens to the entirety of the economy when its bedrock is removed. Indeed, what happens when human labor is no longer a commodity? When it becomes inessential? Isn't the current cost of a resource simply a matter of how much someone has to be paid to extract it? Do resources become free, then? And what does this mean for the people who own the resources when they no longer have to pay to exploit them?
More importantly, though, what happens to all the people...
... when the robots don't need us anymore?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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