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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 970 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(1)
Message 1 of 824 (715359)
01-04-2014 12:14 PM


Source: ABC News

quote:
Bill Nye "The Science Guy" is set to visit Kentucky next month for a debate on science and creation with the man who founded the Creation Museum.

Founder Ken Ham wrote on his Facebook page that the museum will host Nye, the former host of a popular youth science show, on Feb. 4.

Nye has been critical of creationists for their opposition to evolution and asserting that the Old Testament is a literal account of the earth's beginnings. Last year in an online video that drew nearly 6 million views, Nye said teaching creationism was bad for children.

The video prompted a response video from the Creation Museum, and Ham later challenged him to a debate.

The event will be titled "Is Creation A Viable Model of Origins?" The museum is planning to charge admission.



Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 2 of 824 (715364)
01-04-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by roxrkool
01-04-2014 12:14 PM


Best Argument? DNA Bottlenecks?
The museum is planning to charge admission.

Of course they are, why pass up another opportunity to soak the gullible.

Note that members will get an undisclosed discount - they need to call in to find it costs them ... ?

The video prompted a response video from the Creation Museum, and Ham later challenged him to a debate.

And what are the ground rules and who will moderate?

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/...-may-not-end-well

quote:
Finally, does Nye have experience in debating creationists? It is almost entirely an exercise in rhetoric, not a search for truth, and is Nye prepared to deal with the Gish Gallop?

He better do his homework.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/...each/event/Nye-Ham-Debate

Doesn't give any details on the format. But the topic title Is creation a viable model of origins? is a probable indication that Ham will try to call\conflate abiogenesis evolution and say that evolution can't explain origins. Expect the airplane in the junkyard PRATT.

He's going into the lion's den. The best argument against the "Creation model" is likely DNA evidence and bottlenecks, but he will need to make the idea simple for the simple people there.

Also expect claims about macroevolution being impossible ... I expect Ham will play to the crowd rather than honestly debate.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by roxrkool, posted 01-04-2014 12:14 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 01-04-2014 2:50 PM RAZD has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 824 (715366)
01-04-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by RAZD
01-04-2014 1:18 PM


Re: Best Argument? DNA Bottlenecks?
I expect Ham will play to the crowd rather than honestly debate.

It's a public debate, what else would you expect?

Ken and Bill already have their minds made up on the subject; neither one is there to convince the other of anything; they are both there for the audience.

In terms of public debating Creationists are far more skilled compared to the science-folk.

Bill Nye will lose.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 4 of 824 (715370)
01-04-2014 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
01-04-2014 2:50 PM


Re: Best Argument? DNA Bottlenecks?
In terms of public debating Creationists are far more skilled compared to the science-folk.

... when the audience is the faithful followers. It would be interesting to pack the audience with people with degrees in biology.

Nye is also a public speaker, so he may be able to hold his end in that regard, but he will need to keep focus on the topic.

It would be interesting for him to show up with a film crew, and do a tour of the "museum" pointing out the incorrect information ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 5 of 824 (715371)
01-04-2014 4:30 PM


The "debate" has already occurred
The "debate" has already occurred.

The results are detailed in major university libraries, in books and journals that fill many floors. Creationists lost.

What is being staged at the creation "museum" is not a debate but a floor show designed to make creationism appear to be on equal terms with science.

P.T. Barnum would be proud!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3795
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 6 of 824 (715389)
01-04-2014 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
01-04-2014 4:30 PM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
P.T. Barnum would be proud!

Indeed.

This is what I cannot comprehend. Nye is not a stu*id (god damned censorship crap) person. Why is he giving these fools an opportunity in his spotlight? It doesn't matter what either side says (and in this community we already know what each side will say and use to counter), just lending his name to this farce gives a level of credibility to Ham and company that is not anywhere close to being deserved.

If Nye has objections to Ham's response to his initial video then Nye, IMHO, should respond with another video where he can take Ham apart point by point without the constant distractions of that showy master charlatan.

Why is he doing this?


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by Itinerant Lurker, posted 01-05-2014 10:14 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 970 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 7 of 824 (715394)
01-05-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
01-04-2014 10:08 PM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
Why is he doing this?

That's what I was wondering. These sorts of debates never go well for evolution. Maybe this time will be different...
This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3795
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 8 of 824 (715395)
01-05-2014 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by roxrkool
01-05-2014 12:08 AM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
Maybe this time will be different...

I'm not sure it matters. Just by being there, whether Nye does well or not, lends a veneer of legitimacy to Ham and creationism; undeserved, unwarranted and just plain bad regardless of performance.

And Nye must know this. Why is doing this? Did he get himself caught in a performance trap and now it's too late to back out?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited by AZPaul3, : more


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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 9 of 824 (715409)
01-05-2014 10:11 AM


How do we know who won?
Isn't the winner determined by the audience? In a debate before an audience of evangelicals at the Creation Science Museum won't the creationist always be deemed the winner? And in the same debate played out before an audience of NAS members won't the scientist always be deemed the winner?

At the superficial level of detail of an oral debate, evangelicals will know that the creationist won, and NAS members will know that the scientist won. The only truly significant difference between the two audiences is that one is unable to assess the issues and the other is. One must trust his side speaks truth, while the other knows his side speaks truth.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
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Itinerant Lurker
Member (Idle past 729 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 12-12-2008


(1)
Message 10 of 824 (715412)
01-05-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
01-04-2014 10:08 PM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
Why is he doing this?

Because Nye is, at heart, an educator. He actually does want to help people understand the science. I'm sure he knows that the deck is stacked here, but he also knows that this debate will be posted on youtube and that there will be people who see it that honestly just don't understand the issues. That's his target audience.

Will it lend a bit of credibility and publicity to Ham? Sure. But if you want to actually change the public perception on this issue you gotta go where the public is. Maybe Nye will do better than expected - after all, he made his career on explaining complicated scientific ideas in simple ways that people could understand.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3795
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 11 of 824 (715468)
01-05-2014 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Itinerant Lurker
01-05-2014 10:14 AM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
The "public" is not at the Creation Museum. It is, however, audience to YouTube. That is where the larger younger audience for Nye's teachings can be most effective, not giving aid and comfort to Ham in Ham's own home.

As Percy has already pointed out each side will claim victory. The videos will be put up on YouTube for all to judge.

Then, and you all know this is going to happen, Ham and company will put up edited videos showing Nye/science at his worse and Ham/creation as the shining star.

If you are correct and he is trying to teach, Nye needs to improve his delivery and the class of his videos, which he very well knows how to do, and teach through that medium. That is the biggest and most important audience Nye can get. Going to Kentucky, IMHO, is a trap and nothing good can come from it.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3308
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 12 of 824 (715469)
01-05-2014 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
01-05-2014 10:11 AM


Re: How do we know who won?
I started studying "creation science" around 1981, when the ICR's travelling snake-oil show rolled into town, but I missed it because I was on duty that evening. I was honestly surprised that they were still in business, having last encountered them in 1970 with the living-fresh-water-mollusc-C14 claim (reservoir effect, I learned later by tracking down the actual source) and the NASA-computer-finding-Joshua's-Lost-Day claim (which even in that time when computers were magical, I recognized to be complete and utter bullshit; most of those now rebutting that claim are Christians).

From a chance encounter with a radio rebroadcast of a speech by Fred Edwords in 1983/4, I learned of the various Committees of Correspondence and their national clearing-house, the National Center for Science Education (NCSE). Along with immediately joining and subscribing to the Creation/Evolution Journal and the Creation/Evolution Newsletter (later combined into NCSE Reports), I also ordered all the back issues available.

Creation/Evolution Newsletter commonly ran reports from debates and other related events -- that was how I first learned about Dr. Duane Gish's "Bullfrog Protein" debacle (http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/bullfrog.html). Of possibly pertinent interest here is the report from a debate circa mid-1980's.

Reporting from memory here. I think it was somewhere like Redlands, or somewhere that sounded similar. Before the debate, the good guys did a quick survey of the cars in the parking lot there. Several school buses from private Christian schools. Lots of cars with bumper stickers that loudly proclaimed the occupants' opinions and allegiances. From that survey, it was estimated that at least 90% of the audience would be creationist.

At the end of the debate, each member of the audience filled out a form indicating who they thought had won. That vote was tallied and it came back with 2/3 for the creationist and 1/3 for the "evolutionist". Of course, the creationist side declared a victory, but in reality they had lost nearly a quarter of their audience.

In similar news, circa 1980 the Tampa Bay school district had a already approved a creationist curriculum when creationist Kenneth Miller (also a most effective opponent of "creation science") debated either Dr. Henry Morris (PhD Hydraulic Engineering) or Dr. Duane Gish (PhD Biochemistry). Actually, he debated both on two separate occasions. The ICR newsletter, Acts and Facts, reported that the creationist (ie, the "creation science" one) had substantially strengthened the creationist position in Tampa Bay, when in reality the school district decided to shelf that creationist curriculum indefinitely.

Spin doctors are eternally at work. And an actual victory may not appear as such.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3308
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 13 of 824 (715474)
01-05-2014 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Itinerant Lurker
01-05-2014 10:14 AM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
I've heard aye's and nay's on both sides. Sometimes you need to weigh both sides and decide upon the one that would do the less harm.

Eg, if nobody steps forward to speak against them, then they will be free to speak unopposed. Though that may work better for when they roll into town with their standard snake-oil pitch.

Because Nye is, at heart, an educator. He actually does want to help people understand the science.

I remember the comments of a well-known "creation science" opponent, but since I do not remember his name I will not try to think of it.

That person mentioned that, as a college professor, his constant experience is with a lecture hall filled with uninterested students who are fighting to stay awake during his lectures -- as a CPO who has given some presentations, I know that feeling all too well. But when he is at a creation/evolution debate and he presents the exact-same information, everybody there is sitting on the edge of their seats and listening to every single word he is saying. That is every educator's wet dream!

And I think it was Fred Edwords who said that the moment he hears his first boo, he then relaxes, knowing that they're not going to like him anyway, and he is now free to tell them the truth.

BTW, through FaceBook I tried to advise Bill Nye to contact and work with NCSE.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 14 of 824 (715499)
01-05-2014 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dwise1
01-05-2014 7:35 PM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
BTW, through FaceBook I tried to advise Bill Nye to contact and work with NCSE.

you can google for his email address

e-mail: bnsg@billnye.com

also see http://www.billnye.com/


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2014 7:35 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16223
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 15 of 824 (715511)
01-06-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
01-05-2014 12:21 AM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
AZPaul3 writes:

Just by being there, whether Nye does well or not, lends a veneer of legitimacy to Ham and creationism;


We should have a series of debates at similar venues - Disneyland, McDonalds. Maybe we could get Goofy to debate the Hamburglar.
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