Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8950 total)
24 online now:
DrJones*, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, xongsmith (4 members, 20 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,076 Year: 22,112/19,786 Month: 675/1,834 Week: 175/500 Day: 3/69 Hour: 3/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution response to human waste
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20327
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1 of 16 (719500)
02-14-2014 3:08 PM


Once again we see that organisms adapt to the garbage that humans discard -- in this case it makes them more dangerous to humans, ironic eh?

http://grist.org/...apted-to-freakish-amounts-of-toxic-waste

quote:
Mutated fish have adapted to freakish amounts of toxic waste

The good news is that after four decades of factories dumping toxic waste into New Bedford Harbor, fish there are still alive, even thriving. The bad news is that the 3-inch-long Atlantic killifish are full of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), now-banned chemicals that were used in electrical equipment, paint, and plastics. (Poor killifish! They were already soaking up mercury, and now this.)

One of their receptor proteins has dulled so that PCBs no longer kill them. Cool, right? Not so fast, says Vice:

[T]he presence of killifish at New Bedford has had some impacts higher up on the food chain. Though they thrive in the sediment, they still carry extremely dangerous doses of PCBs that are transferred to larger fish, and ultimately humans, when they’re preyed on.

So while killifish have evolved in response to pollution, it’s hardly evidence that pollution is anything but harmful.

Thankfully the EPA is working on cleaning up the harbor, because three-eyed fish are cool in The Simpsons but less so in real life.


So the poisons we've put into the water move up the food-chain to our food. Good move eh?

Once again we see that there is no "away" and when you "throw something away" all you really do is relocate it.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by herebedragons, posted 02-15-2014 8:44 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 8 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-15-2014 6:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2 of 16 (719572)
02-15-2014 8:00 AM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 3 of 16 (719574)
02-15-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:08 PM


Our (In)Destructable Earth
Even as recently as 20 - 30 years ago, I think most people had the attitude that the earth was basically indestructible and whatever we threw at it, it was capable of cleaning itself up. I mean, dump a barrel of industrial waste into a river and in a short time it has been diluted to the point where it is barely detectable. And at some level this is true. The earth is extremely resilient and has systems that can clean up some amount of damage.

However, it has become increasingly clear in recent years that while the earth does have the ability to clean itself somewhat, human activity is totally overwhelming natural processes. In addition, we are developing products that the earth was never designed (not an ID argument ) to deal with (such as PCBs).

Once again we see that there is no "away" and when you "throw something away" all you really do is relocate it.

Good point. We are certainly a "throw away" society. Consumer products are designed to be short-lived, and rather than repaired, they are simply disposed of. Not to mention packaging. What a trashy society we live in

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-14-2014 3:08 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 02-15-2014 11:01 AM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 11:27 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 4 of 16 (719580)
02-15-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by herebedragons
02-15-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Our (In)Destructable Earth
herebedragons writes:

However, it has become increasingly clear in recent years that while the earth does have the ability to clean itself somewhat, human activity is totally overwhelming natural processes.


That's likely a temporary situation. When we have poisoned the earth enough to make ourselves extinct, the cleanup process will have a chance to catch up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by herebedragons, posted 02-15-2014 8:44 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20327
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 5 of 16 (719583)
02-15-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by herebedragons
02-15-2014 8:44 AM


Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
However, it has become increasingly clear in recent years that while the earth does have the ability to clean itself somewhat, human activity is totally overwhelming natural processes. In addition, we are developing products that the earth was never designed (not an ID argument ) to deal with (such as PCBs).

Even biodegradable items take a while.

Good point. We are certainly a "throw away" society. Consumer products are designed to be short-lived, and rather than repaired, they are simply disposed of. Not to mention packaging. What a trashy society we live in

One suggestion I have heard is to for disposal of nuclear waste is to dump the barrels into a subduction zone.

Certainly sounds better to me than current plans.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by herebedragons, posted 02-15-2014 8:44 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 02-15-2014 1:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 6:05 PM RAZD has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 6 of 16 (719584)
02-15-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
02-15-2014 11:27 AM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
One suggestion I have heard is to for disposal of nuclear waste is to dump the barrels into a subduction zone.

We may want that stuff in a century or two. Better to put it where we can get it if we need it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 11:27 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 7 of 16 (719597)
02-15-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
02-15-2014 11:27 AM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
If enough people believed in the God of the Bible and prayed about all this I'm sure He'd provide us a solution, but that isn't going to happen so there may not be any good solutions coming up either.

However, on the subject of nuclear waste, although I'm a Nevadan I have the no doubt odd point of view that since a site has been prepared to receive nuclear waste in this state, with all kinds of precautions taken, and it's in the same vicinity where so many nuclear bombs were tested in the 50s and 60s that the area is still "hot," I think bringing it here is maybe the best solution after all. The alternative is to store it in less safe places.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 11:27 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 7:22 PM Faith has responded
 Message 13 by frako, posted 02-16-2014 4:56 AM Faith has responded

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 1189 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 8 of 16 (719603)
02-15-2014 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:08 PM


PCB Sauce

No worries RAZD as we are going to mutate and evolve as well to develop a taste for PCBs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-14-2014 3:08 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20327
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 9 of 16 (719606)
02-15-2014 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-15-2014 6:05 PM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
... I have the no doubt odd point of view that since a site has been prepared to receive nuclear waste in this state, with all kinds of precautions taken, ...

They thought Fukushima was safe.

http://www.npr.org/...s-later-a-harrowing-visit-to-fukushima


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 6:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 7:29 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 16 (719607)
02-15-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
02-15-2014 7:22 PM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
Yes, but Fukushima was built near the ocean. If you think Yucca mountain is unsafe in any similar way let us know why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 7:22 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 8:05 PM Faith has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20327
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 11 of 16 (719612)
02-15-2014 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
02-15-2014 7:29 PM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
http://nucleaette.blogspot.com/...ons-of-yucca-mountain.html

quote:
Ah, Yucca – the juggernaut of U.S. nuclear waste policy issues for the past several decades. Should we bury our nasties there or not?

Even after 5 years of scientific research related to nuclear waste, I still haven’t formed a strong yes or no opinion. In fact, I think the complicated nature of the problem is a big part of why I find it so fascinating. The answer I usually go with is that I think I could maybe support the site itself, but I can’t support the project the way the U.S. government has been planning it. Here are some pros and cons, each of which will eventually get its own blog post.

Pros
1. On-site interim storage can only last so long, and that stuff has to go somewhere.
2. It is in a fairly remote, sparsely populated area.
3. The government already owns the land.
4. The mountain is located in a large basin (the southern Great Basin), so if nasties do get into the water, they will hopefully be contained in just that one area of the country.
5. Supposedly with the planned engineered barriers (a big steel can, basically) the site is good enough that everything will be a-ok for thousands of years. This is according to a computer program that tries to take everything we know about the site into account. This Discover article spends some time describing the program.
6. Sunk cost: The U.S. has already spent over $10 billion prepping for Yucca. Do we really want to start over?

Cons
1. It is unfair to the state of Nevada, which doesn’t have a single nuclear power plant and is resolutely against accepting the waste. There is some discussion about this on Alas! A blog.
2. It is only about 100 miles from Las Vegas.
3. Transporting all the waste out there is not straightforward.
4. It’s in the Basin and Range Province. That means earthquakes and maybe even volcanoes. The main concern in technical circles is actually not a big fat whopper of a shake-down so much as increased fracture formation, leading to more water dribbling in, meaning more corrosion and dissolution. Still.
5. There is an enormous amount of uncertainty in the models for what will happen, especially if you really have to try to predict out to, say, 1 million years. There is so much uncertainty that it is unclear how meaningful any assurance of long-term safety based on these models actually is.
6. I’ve heard the dryness of the area sometimes mentioned as a pro. Well, it’s not actually that dry, and I’m not actually convinced this isn’t a con, because it means you have an oxidizing environment.


And with the long half-life of plutonium it will be around for a looooong time.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 7:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 8:30 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 16 (719614)
02-15-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
02-15-2014 8:05 PM


Yucca Mountain Nuclear Disposal
What about the current situation of how the nuclear waste is stored? He doesn't get into that comparison for some reason.

Oh, and I've also wondered what with those thousands or was it just hundreds of tests in the 50s and 60s to what extent the water is already contaminated. He doesn't mention that either (I certainly wouldn't want to add to such a problem but it's funny it isn't a big part of the discussion).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2014 8:05 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 16 (719670)
02-16-2014 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-15-2014 6:05 PM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
If enough people believed in the God of the Bible and prayed about all this I'm sure He'd provide us a solution, but that isn't going to happen so there may not be any good solutions coming up either.

LOL no faith if enough people stopped praying for things to go away or just fix themselves, and actually did some work and study the problems we might find a solution.

Though we do have an alternative to current nuclear power plants, that would be thorium reactors. Their downside is you cant make weapons out of the waste, and the fuel is cheap so cheap we are throwing it away as waste. So as long as we have a capitalistic, militaristic mindset it aint gonna happen on a scale we need it too.

However, on the subject of nuclear waste, although I'm a Nevadan I have the no doubt odd point of view that since a site has been prepared to receive nuclear waste in this state, with all kinds of precautions taken, and it's in the same vicinity where so many nuclear bombs were tested in the 50s and 60s that the area is still "hot," I think bringing it here is maybe the best solution after all. The alternative is to store it in less safe places.

The problem is the time-scale you literally need to wait millions of years for nuclear waste to become safe, anyone saying that a particular site is gonn'a be safe to store nuclear waste for a million years is insane a million things can happen in that time.

The safest method would be to launch the waste in to the sun but to make that cost efficient we would need a space elevator.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 6:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 02-16-2014 1:20 PM frako has responded
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 02-16-2014 6:20 PM frako has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5414
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 14 of 16 (719684)
02-16-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
02-16-2014 4:56 AM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
Let's not send it into the Sun, Frako. Rockets crash.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by frako, posted 02-16-2014 4:56 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by frako, posted 02-16-2014 5:20 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2823
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 15 of 16 (719698)
02-16-2014 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coragyps
02-16-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Subduction Zone Nuclear Disposal?
hence the space elevator, carbon nanotubes are strong enough to make it feasible, the only problem is we cant make them long enough.... yet, but the guy who figures that out is gonna be a billionaire the next day.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 02-16-2014 1:20 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019