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Author Topic:   Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
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Message 1 of 78 (719662)
02-15-2014 2:51 AM

UPDATE: I've changed the title of the thread from my original "Request for Thread on Geology of Oil" to the title Petrophysics put on his post #3 since it looks like this may remain the thread where the topic gets discussed. I don't think it should, I only meant to be requesting that others start a thread on the subject, but it's retitled for now anyway.

Some geologists here complain that creationist views of historical interpretive geology don't appreciate how its methods are necessary for finding oil among other things. Usually that's merely said and any explanation of how it works for finding oil is not given.

Some time back I noticed that salt beds seem to be frequently associated with oil deposits and if nothing else I'd like to know if there's a reason for that association if anyone knows and can explain it.

Otherwise I'd like to see someone start a thread on the general subject of how principles of Geology are useful for finding oil.


Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002

Message 2 of 78 (719663)
02-15-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
02-15-2014 2:51 AM

I'm not a geology expert, but I do make my living from the exploitation of oil and gas deposits. Rox and Petrophysics, will you watch by back if I jump off into this?
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Inactive Member

Message 3 of 78 (719664)
02-15-2014 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
02-15-2014 3:39 PM

Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
Hi Coragyps,
I'm game, but a word of caution here. Classes in things like coastal depositional environments, or fluvial or deltaic systems are taught in a university at the graduate level. Which means we would be talking to degreed geologists with a background in geology, math, physics and chemistry.

I am willing to cover your back and can provide actual examples of oil and gas prospects I have drilled over the years. I do not know if the average person will understand them. All I can do here is try.

Understand that for close to 30 years I have used my knowledge of petroleum geology to earn an income which kept me in the upper 2% of U.S. income earners with some occasional good years where I made it into the upper 1%.

What I do works! What Faith and other YECs do is a joke, and doesn't work.

Here is my resume just so you will know who is covering your back. BTW I got those college grades while working to support myself full time and also going to school full time Not much time for sleep... I once stayed awake from 5 AM Saturday till 7 PM Friday, it was a finals week in spring of '77.

Resume of
Martin P. Granica
P.O. Box 247,
21 Neosha Trail,
Boulder, Wyoming 82923
307-removed cell number

Professional Experience

Aspen Brook Logging Inc. 12/2000-Present
C.A. Bohling,
P.O. Box 17928,
Golden, CO 80402

Senior Geologist and Log Analyst. Provided geologic wellsite consulting services primarily for Encana Oil & Gas Inc. on the Jonah Field, Wy. with occasional small projects in the Wind River and Williston Basins through Aspen Brook Logging. (At present all of my consulting is through Aspen Brook Logging Inc. with Apex Exploration only generating and drilling its own prospects in the Texas- Oklahoma Panhandles.) At present consulting for RPM Geologic, Denver, Co.

Apex Exploration Inc. 4/85-Present
President and Chief Operating Officer. Through my company Apex, I provide consulting services to the oil and gas industry in qualitative and quantitative well log analysis for exploration, formation evaluation, completion design, and reserve calculations, subsurface mapping, geologic wellsite supervision including sample and gas logging, DSTs and coring, prospect generation, land and 3rd party prospect evaluation, and the interpretation of depositional environments and Sequence Stratigraphy through extensive study of subsurface data (cores, thin sections, dipmeters and Formation Micro-imaging tools, recent and old well logs, seismic and drilling samples). Apex also generates and drills (doing everything from prospect to pipeline) its own oil and gas prospects in the Texas and Oklahoma Panhandles and S.E. Colorado.

Some longer term projects:

2000-2012 Well site Geologic consulting for Encana Oil and Gas Inc. (USA), Denver, Co. in the Jonah Gas Field, Wyoming. Responsible for logging drill cuttings, make sample and gas logs for 8 drilling wells which I monitored simultaneously and remotely to evaluate probable reservoir productivity and pick a final TD for the well based on my findings. This resulted in Encana, over the years, from TD’ing in the Yellow Point to drilling all of the Wardell and then the entire Mesa Verde, as sample and gas shows showed these older formations would be productive and economical as well. Maintenance and repair of all equipment for accurate collection of data was an additional responsibility.

1998-2000 Geologic consulting for Goodson & Assoc., Lakewood, CO
On site drilling, ASTM Engineering Soil Descriptions and installation of monitoring wells for various State and Federal Environmental and DOT projects (T-Rex project to widen I25 and put in light rail). This work required me to be recognized as a Professional Geologist by the State of Colorado.

1996-1997 Consulting for Thrace Basin Natural Gas, Hayrabolu, Turkey
Bought/refurbished and moved a rig from Farmington, NM to Turkey. Geologic and log analysis consulting, completion design and treatment, well testing, along with buying all types of oil field equipment and completion chemicals and designing the septic tank and leach field for waste disposal at the permanent field camp in Turkey.

1995-1996 Consulting for StrataSearch Corp., Golden, CO
Run Time Domain Electromagnetic Surveys in Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming and North Dakota. Field operations which included layout and surveying of transmitter and receiver stations along with maintenance of all equipment along with occasional fabrication of some interfacing parts.

August/ September 1986, Lectured and Consulted in the Peoples Republic Of China
Invited to lecture at the Daquing Petroleum Institute on the use and application of dipmeter logs in exploration and developmental drilling. In addition to the videotaped lectures I also provided consulting services on a number of log analysis projects for the Daquing Field.

Apex has provided consulting services to Encana Oil & Gas, Champlin Petroleum (UPRC), Avalon Energy, New London Oil, Caribou Energy, Beverly Exploration, Perry Exploration, Tunoil, Yellowstone Resources, Berry Energy, Murfin Drilling, Petrogulf Corp., Pantano Energy, Jayare Exploration, W.C. Payne Inc., Lario Oil & Gas Inc., Delta Petroleum, Marathon, Thrace Basin Natural Gas Inc., StrataSearch Corp., Goodson & Assoc., and the Peoples Republic of China.

Apex has completed drilling (farmout) agreements with Amoco Production Company, Phillips Petroleum Co., Exxon Corp., City Services- Oxy, BST Inc., Kaiser Francis, Questa, Ampet Inc., Jayare Exploration and Champlin (UPRC) Petroleum and drilled its own prospects on open acreage.

Since late 2000 Apex no longer does consulting but only generates and drills its own prospects in the Texas- Oklahoma Panhandles and Eastern Colorado.

Phillips Petroleum Company 5/80-4/85
Frank Phillips Bldg.,
Bartlesville, Ok. 74004

Supervisor: Wallace W. Souder
From 5/80- 12/80 employed as log analyst in the Formation Evaluation Unit of the Exploration Projects Section of Phillips Petroleum in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. Responsibilities:
1. Log analysis for enhanced recovery of the North Burbank oil field, N.E. Oklahoma
2. Log analysis for exploration holes Cesar Basin, N.E. Colombia
3. Application of log analysis techniques to bore gravity data (Permian Basin) and geothermal exploration and production (Imperial Valley, Ca.)
4. Generation and testing of interactive log analysis programs for hand held calculators (HP-41 C) to be used by personal for “quick look” log interpretation in the field.
5. Represented Phillips Petroleum Company on Winnifred Lake Tar Sands Project ( Alberta, Canada) in meetings with Amoco, Alberta Energy, and Petro-Canada. The purpose of these meetings was to determine, using log and extensive core data, the proper log analysis techniques to evaluate tar sand reserves and the economic feasibility of the project based on recoverable reserves of these tar sands.

Phillips Petroleum Company
Denver, Co.

Supervisor: Ronald Zdyb, Patrick Donham, Jerry Kreitner
From 1/81-4/85 employed as exploration geologist Mid-continent, Panhandle Region of Texas and Oklahoma in the Denver office.
1. Generation of oil and gas prospects in the Texas-Oklahoma Panhandles (Hugoton Deep Project).
2. Integration of geological and geophysical data for the application of seismic Stratigraphy to the search for Morrow sandstones.
3. Log analysis on all wells in the Mid-continent Region.
4. Determine if casing should be run and the intervals to be perforated and tested on holes drilled.
5. Geologic well site supervision, including sample and show analysis, open hole testing (DST’S) and quality control on logging runs.

During this time I was responsible for generating and getting drilled 32 exploration prospects of which 13 were successfully completed (40%) (see Appendix 1).

In May 1983, I received an Incentive Bonus Award from Phillips Petroleum in appreciation of my exploration success on the Hugoton Deep Project. This award was presented by Colin Wilkinson, Western Division Exploration Manager for Phillips.

Shortly after working for Philips Petroleum, in 1985, the Phillips Denver Office of Engineering calculated the annual average rate of return (AARR) on the wells I had drilled in the Texas- Oklahoma Panhandles (Hugoton Deep Project). This return was found to be 185% with an NTIR (Net Times Investment Return) of well over 25.

USGS, Branch of Oil and Gas Resources
DFC, Bldg. 25, M.S.939
Lakewood, Colorado 80225

Supervisor: Thomas Fouch, Ronald C. Johnson
Employed as a P.S.T., GS-7, Responsibilities included geologic mapping, measuring sections, drafting, well log correlation, construction of subsurface diagrams, qualitative and quantitative analysis of well logs, description of drilling samples, and collection of samples for thin sections, x-ray, and pollen analysis to determine reserves of gas in place. This work done on the Cretaceous and Tertiary rocks of the Piceance Creek Basin, N.W. Colorado as part of the Western Tight Gas Sands Project.

Employment prior to 12/77 was as an Electronics Technician repairing commercial two-way radio equipment and consumer electronics.

Professional Publications at U.S.G.S.:

USGS, three Misc. Field Studies, MF1130A, MF1130B, and MF1130C.
“Cross Sections of the Late Cretaceous and Early Tertiary Rocks, Piceance Creek Basin, Colorado” (A-A’, B-B’, C-C’), by Ronald C. Johnson, Martin P.Granica and Nancy C Dessenberger. 1979

USGS Misc. Field Studies MF1189
“Structure Contour and Isochore Map of the Nonmarine Part of the MesaVerde Formation Group, Piceance Creek Basin, Colorado”, by Martin P. Granica and Ronald C. Johnson. 1980

Education: 209 semester hours Total, with 146 hours in Geology/Geophysics, Chemistry, Physics, Electronics, Environmental Science, Computer Science, Petroleum Exploration Technology and Mathematics (course list Appendix 2)

University of Colorado at Boulder
Graduated BA Geology, May 1980
Grade Point average 3.94

Community College of Denver, Red Rocks Campus
Graduated AS Geology, August 1978
Grade Point average 3.87

Hilbert College, Hamburg, NY
Graduated AA, Liberal Arts, May 1976
Grade point average 3.19
Colorado School of Mines
Completed 20.5 credit hours from 9/67-6/68

Academic Awards:

Brunton Award for “Outstanding Senior Student”, 79/80 by Dept of Geology, University of Colorado at Boulder 1980
Deans List, University of Colorado at Boulder
Estwing Award for “Outstanding Junior Student”, 78/79, Dept of Geology, University of Colorado at Boulder
Deans List, Red Rocks Community College
Deans List, Hilbert College
Named to “Who’s Who Among American Junior College Students” by Hilbert College, 1976

Professional References:

BTW I removed these because I didn't want EvC people bothering my friends

Appendix 1
Prospects generated and drilled while employed for Phillips Petroleum, all are in Texas County, Oklahoma, Sherman and Hansford Counties, Texas.

* Indicates a completed producing well

* Crimson #2
Craig D #2
* Gayle #3
* Beaman A #1
Maner #3
Marga #2
* Rowan A #1
Witter A #4
Bran #2
* Hogle #2
* Waugh #2
Collard #2A
Hammond #2
* Hargrove #2
Shirk #2
* Coldwater B #1
Ivens M #2
Section #2
Bivins #2
* Reust # 2
Portsmouth #2
Craig G #2
* Kathryn A#2
Wanda #2
Witt D #2
* Hitch C #2
Krull #2
* Pearl #4
Harland #2
Heath #2
* Craig H #2

Prospects Generated and drilled since becoming Independent in April 1985, located in S.E. Colorado and the Texas and Oklahoma Panhandles.

* Mitchell 35-1
SE Coldwater
* Renner 22-1
Price 31-1
Freeman 26-1
N. Texhoma 20-1 (marginal, P&A)
* Craig 80-1
Flannigan 20-1
* Craig 80-2
Dupey 30-1 (marginal P&A)
* Craig 80-3
Eli 3-29
Rowan A3
* Ramsey 1-7
* Coe Trust 1
* Schiemer 1
* Schiemer 2
Specific prospect history, completion information, well location, cumulative production and any additional information provided upon request.

Appendix 2
College Courses Completed

Course Semesters Semester Credit

General College Chemistry 2 8
College Physics 2 8
Calculus 3 12
Computer Science 1 4
Environmental Science 2 8
Engineering Graphics 1 1
Physical & Historical Geology 2 8
Mineralogy & Advanced Min. 2 9
Petrology 1 4
Structural Geology 1 5
Stratigraphy 1 4
Paleontology 1 4
Sedimentation* 1 4*
Optical Mineralogy & Petrology* 1 4*
Subsurface Geology* 1 4*
Mechanics of Underground Fluids* 1 4*
Geophysics* 2 7(4*)
Petroleum Geology & Geochemistry* 1 4*
Geomorphology 1 4*
Geologic Well Log Analysis 1 3
Field Geology 2 6
Geol. Field Experience 1 2
Geological Map Drafting 1 6
Intro to Petroleum Industry 1 3
Electronics Eng. Technology 2 20
English 5 15
History 3 9
Philosophy 2 6
Anthropology 2 6
Sociology 1 3
Developmental Psychology 1 3
Spanish 3 13
German 1 5
ROTC 2 2
PE 2 1
TOTAL Science & Mathematics 146
TOTAL all course work 209
* Indicates graduate level course

Other Education:
Spanish 80 private lessons Berlitz School of languages 1990

German 80 private lessons Berlitz School of languages 1990

Cleveland Institute of Electronics Correspondence Course, 1970, received FCC Second Class Commercial Radio Telephone License no P2-15-14413, required to maintain and repair 2 way commercial radio equipment and operate and maintain public radio and television transmitters.

Phillips Petroleum, 1980, in house, 1 week in each of the following: hydrodynamics, geophysics (seismic & gravity), remote sensing, geochemistry, depositional environments and taught part of the 1 week course in log analysis for new geologists.
Phillips Petroleum Clastics Course, 2 weeks 1983
Phillips Petroleum Seismic Stratigraphy Course, 1 week 1984

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

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 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2014 3:39 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

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Inactive Member

Message 4 of 78 (719665)
02-15-2014 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by petrophysics1
02-15-2014 7:48 PM

Re: Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
Perhaps the mods should turn this into a science thread.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by petrophysics1, posted 02-15-2014 7:48 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.9

Message 5 of 78 (719667)
02-16-2014 2:07 AM

Thread Copied from Coffee House Forum
Thread copied here from the Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example thread in the Coffee House forum.
Posts: 12578
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.6

Message 6 of 78 (719732)
02-17-2014 8:00 AM

Opening This Thread
I didn't see an explanation for why this thread is closed, so thinking that it might be by accident, I'm opening this thread.

EvC Forum Director

Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003

Message 7 of 78 (719754)
02-17-2014 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
02-15-2014 3:39 PM

I'll definitely watch your back, Cora, but just so you know, while I have taken various petroleum-specific courses (seismic, sequence stratigraphy, basin analysis), my area of expertise is ore deposits. I will be much less help than Petro or edge. I do have the same concerns as Petro, however. The application of the geosciences to natural resource exploration / exploitation is a fairly advanced topic to tackle, especially considering the most interested party. I am proud of Faith for taking this step, but it's a bit like jumping into Differential Equations before you've taken Trig. I do think that this topic could be a great introduction into how science, specifically geology, is applied to real-world problems. The "profitability" of a scientific model is a fairly good indicator of its robustness. The problem with Creationist models seems to be that they have no model.

In all honesty, I hope everyone has the time because this will be a technically-intensive topic to cover. In the past when I've posted a more technically advanced argument, Faith has not understood it at all. In fact, Faith has had significant difficulty understanding basic geologic principles... mostly because she doesn't believe them, but that's also a problem. Because of this, I feel that perhaps the best way for this topic to proceed would be to follow Dr. A's template in his Intro to Geology thread where he introduced specific topics, allowed for clarifying questions, and debating (per se) was prohibited. If Faith seriously wants to learn about this topic, allowing Cora and/or others to present the process and theory behind it first, is a necessity. Getting bogged down with arguments after the first post will hinder the stated purpose of the thread. After Cora is satisfied with what has been introduced, then the debating can begin.

But seriously, where do you start?

All I know is that all mineral deposits, particularly oil/gas, are intimately connected to stratigraphy and structure. You almost have to start with Sedimentology, then move onto Stratigraphy, Sequence Stratigraphy, structure, etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2014 3:39 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003

Message 8 of 78 (719755)
02-17-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by petrophysics1
02-15-2014 7:48 PM

Re: Why flood geology doesn't work, oil exploration as the example
We're from the same neck of the woods! I went to Mines (M.Sc. Geology 2007) and worked at the Survey for 5 years at the Federal Center in Lakewood.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by petrophysics1, posted 02-15-2014 7:48 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002

Message 9 of 78 (720035)
02-19-2014 9:10 PM

Submerged in work - I will kick this off eventually.
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Inactive Member

Message 10 of 78 (721634)
03-10-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
02-19-2014 9:10 PM


Just wondering.

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Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002

Message 11 of 78 (721635)
03-10-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
03-10-2014 1:06 PM

I'm wondering, too - but will try to start this evening with the Horseshoe Atoll. It's 6500 feet below my chair. It's oily.
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Inactive Member

Message 12 of 78 (721674)
03-11-2014 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
03-10-2014 1:06 PM

Shortly after you posted I got a call to consult on 4 wells near Watford City, ND. 2 Bakken and 2 Three Forks lateral wells all being drilled to about 22,000 feet. I expect to be here till late April or early May. I've been here since Feb 18.

However I have given this some thought and after considering three or four different approaches I think I have come up with a way to approach it that I think may work to explain it to someone who knows nothing about geology.

I am a bit busy as I have to describe over 60,00 feet of rocks, make many decisions on the fly and write it all up along with numerous diagrams. It's kind of like writing a novel with numerous illustrations in 2 months.

BTW I think about you when I'm drilling through all the salt and anhydrite deposits up here in the Williston Basin........you can't make evaporates in a flood.

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 Message 10 by Faith, posted 03-10-2014 1:06 PM Faith has responded

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Posts: 7670
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3

Message 13 of 78 (721688)
03-11-2014 11:23 AM

Glenn Morton
Here is what Glenn Morton had to say on the issue:

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

I think it is important to mention that Morton started out as a YEC. He was a contributor to papers written for the ICR, the lead YEC group. After being exposed to the evidence in the field of geology, he simply could not hold that position any longer. In that essay, he also discusses evidence that he discovered in his work, such as buried eroded mountains and river systems in seismic imaging.

Replies to this message:
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Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002

Message 14 of 78 (721823)
03-12-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coragyps
03-10-2014 1:16 PM

I'm still covered up with work, Faith, with not much end in sight. Good intentions, and all that....

Petrophysics, scenic Watford City, eh? Our company is nearly finished setting up in Killdeer. That's part of the work that is covering me up.

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Inactive Member

Message 15 of 78 (721878)
03-13-2014 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by petrophysics1
03-11-2014 8:45 AM

I just saw these posts on this thread, thanks very much for reporting on your situation and I look forward to your presentation here when you are finally able to get to it.

BTW I think about you when I'm drilling through all the salt and anhydrite deposits up here in the Williston Basin........you can't make evaporates in a flood.

Of course not, they had to have formed afterward. But that's one of the phenomena I hope you will explain, why salt is so frequently found in the vicinity of oil deposits. But of course it's nice to be thought of. I guess. (But I don't want to make this into a debate thread, I really do just want to hear about how oil deposits are discovered.)

Thanks again.

By the way I don't suppose you operate in Canada do you? I have a part interest through my family in the mineral rights to a piece of land in an oil-producing area. Probably nothing there or they'd have drilled already but oh well. (yes, of course I expect you to know how to find oil deposits.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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