Understanding through Discussion

QuickSearch

 Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ] EvC Forum active members: 81 (9005 total)
 61 online now: driewerf, jar, PaulK, Son Goku, vimesey (5 members, 56 visitors) Newest Member: kanthesh Post Volume: Total: 881,188 Year: 12,936/23,288 Month: 661/1,527 Week: 100/240 Day: 28/35 Hour: 3/1

 Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)

EvC Forum Science Forums Creation/Evolution Miscellany

# Possibility Order of Magnetude Metric (POMM)

Author Topic:   Possibility Order of Magnetude Metric (POMM)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

 Message 1 of 5 (722198) 03-18-2014 7:10 AM

We see any number of arguments that "X" is possible when dealing with YEC arguments.

Example: speed of movement of tectonic plates -- to get from one continent just after the flood (so the animals can disperse to their current locations) the blocks must move at a pretty fantastic clip ... is it possible?

Technically anything is "possible" but a critical analysis says that it is not very possible ...

To get a handle on this I propose a metric to deal with this issue: The POMM, the "Possibility Order of Magnitude Metric."

Take the current known maximum rate (CKMR)-- any proposal that uses this rate is assigned a POMM value of 1 (highly possible)

Double that rate is assigned a POMM of 0.5 (fairly possible)

The rest is an exponential curve:

POMM = (1/2)r
where r = proposed rate / CKMR

So if one proposes that continents move at 1 foot per day when the CKMR is 1 inch per year the POMM would be (1/2)(12x365) = 3.080484244×10⁻¹³¹⁹

Edited by Admin, : Remove unnecessary and possibly confusing "^" characters.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

 Replies to this message: Message 3 by Stile, posted 03-18-2014 9:24 AM RAZD has responded

Director
Posts: 12705
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002

 Message 2 of 5 (722200) 03-18-2014 9:03 AM

Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Possibility Order of Magnetude Metric (POMM) thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5

 Message 3 of 5 (722203) 03-18-2014 9:24 AM Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD03-18-2014 7:10 AM

 RAZD writes:The rest is an exponential curve:

Makes sense to me.

My first question was "why an exponential curve?"
But, well, I can understand it in the context of "it's rational to think things are generally consistent throughout history" with what we know of measurements and repeatability and all that. Therefore, the exponential curve is signifying how "crazy" things can get as you get further and further away from our "rational" expectations.

So, the exponential curve does make sense to me.

But... I don't think the argument will have much of an impact on those you would intend to use it for...
They seem to believe that history was not anything we're used to or anything close to what our "rational analysis" would lead us to conceptualize. They have no issues with dismissing the evidence.

Taking that sort of position into account... I don't see this "additional rational exercise" being helpful in trying to show a creationist the error of their ways. It seems like the rebuttal would just be another "tree rings worked differently then!!!" kind of denial...

Might be helpful for some of those who are newly on the fence about the subject and just trying to gather more information, though?

 This message is a reply to: Message 1 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2014 7:10 AM RAZD has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2014 6:55 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply Message 5 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2014 10:46 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

NoNukes
Inactive Member

 (1)
 Message 4 of 5 (722226) 03-18-2014 6:55 PM Reply to: Message 3 by Stile03-18-2014 9:24 AM

 But... I don't think the argument will have much of an impact on those you would intend to use it for...

I agree. It would not have an impact on people who are cannot even cope with scientific notation or the metric scale. However those arguments do persuade me to laugh, so they are not completely lost.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

 This message is a reply to: Message 3 by Stile, posted 03-18-2014 9:24 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

RAZD
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004

 Message 5 of 5 (722231) 03-18-2014 10:46 PM Reply to: Message 3 by Stile03-18-2014 9:24 AM

 My first question was "why an exponential curve?" ...

Well, I saw it as including scientific tentativity, that the possibility could not be absolutely ruled out, never reach zero ... just get very close to zero fairly rapidly the more outrageous the claims.

 Taking that sort of position into account... I don't see this "additional rational exercise" being helpful in trying to show a creationist the error of their ways. It seems like the rebuttal would just be another "tree rings worked differently then!!!" kind of denial...

YEC 6,000 year old earth vs current known maximum age 4.55 billion years ... meaning an average apparent aging rate of

4.55x10^9/6x10^3 = 7.58x^5 years per year

so POMM = (1/2)^7.58x^5 = 1.8×10^-228181

Near zero yes?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

 This message is a reply to: Message 3 by Stile, posted 03-18-2014 9:24 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

 Date format: mm-dd-yyyy Timezone: ET (US)
 Newer Topic | Older Topic Jump to:Board Administration     The Public Record     Announcements     Proposed New Topics     Suggestions and Questions Science Forums     The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy     Big Bang and Cosmology     Dates and Dating     Education and Creation/Evolution     Biological Evolution     Geology and the Great Flood     Human Origins and Evolution     Intelligent Design     Is It Science?     Creation/Evolution Miscellany     Origin of Life Social and Religious Issues     Bible Study     Comparative Religions     Social Issues and Creation/Evolution     Faith and Belief     Theological Creationism and ID Side Orders     Coffee House     The Great Debate     Free For All     Post of the Month     Links and Information     Creation/Evolution In The News     The Book Nook     Columnist     Practice Makes Perfect Archives     Topic Proposals Archive     Showcase Retired Forums     Short Subjects (No new topics or messages)     Welcome visitors