Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9072 total)
67 online now:
AZPaul3 (1 member, 66 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,122 Year: 4,234/6,534 Month: 448/900 Week: 154/150 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus had a wife?
Percy
Member
Posts: 20749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 11 (723858)
04-10-2014 8:44 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 04-10-2014 9:13 AM Percy has seen this message

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5971
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 2 of 11 (723860)
04-10-2014 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
04-10-2014 8:44 AM


... More Likely Ancient Than Fake ...

As one commentator (blogger) has suggested, this may merely mean that the paprus was an ancient forgery, rather than a modern forgery.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 04-10-2014 8:44 AM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 04-10-2014 10:10 AM nwr has seen this message
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2014 1:12 PM nwr has seen this message

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 487 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 11 (723863)
04-10-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
04-10-2014 9:13 AM


In fact I read one piece that says the promoter of the fragment, Karen King, isn't even arguing that Jesus was actually married.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 04-10-2014 9:13 AM nwr has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4 of 11 (723870)
04-10-2014 11:10 AM


Come Now....
I was always taught that the church was His wife....and am predisposed to believe the symbolism to be true. Jesus would never settle for a mere human woman....He wants all of us in communion.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 04-10-2014 12:54 PM Phat has seen this message
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 04-14-2014 7:29 PM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 5 of 11 (723875)
04-10-2014 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
04-10-2014 11:10 AM


Re: Come Now....
Phat writes:

Jesus would never settle for a mere human woman....He wants all of us in communion.


That's like saying that He would never settle for mere loaves and fishes. You have to separate the physical from the symbolic. If He ate physical food, why wouldn't He have a physical wife?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 11:10 AM Phat has seen this message

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 6 of 11 (723876)
04-10-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
04-10-2014 9:13 AM


I think that the "ancient forgery" is reaching a bit. Indeed, it looks to me like trying to cling to the idea of forgery despite the evidence.

Which is odd, since a heterodox manuscript, even from the 5th Century AD, is hardly a big threat to Christian ideas about Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 04-10-2014 9:13 AM nwr has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-10-2014 2:03 PM PaulK has taken no action

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1023 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 7 of 11 (723880)
04-10-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
04-10-2014 1:12 PM


Dating
From my understanding of the article, while this artifact was originally dated by the University of Arizona as being from around the time of Jesus, this date was updated with more recent tests to about 700-800CE in Egypt. I agree that I am not sure a document, even an authentic one, from this time period will create too much unrest without the corroborating evidence to go along with it. I am sure you will get some of the vocal fundamentalists out screaming about it, but for a majority of Christians, they will either

A: Deny the accuracy of the information, claiming that one note from 800 years after the fact is not enough to overturn current academic thoughts on whether Jesus was married.

B: Claim that married or not, Jesus is still the Son of God and that this does not affect their belief in anyway. In fact, after all the Dan Brown hysteria from fundamentalists, many people have opened up to the possibility that Jesus was married.

An interesting point: The discoverer is not claiming that this artifact even for sure means that Jesus was married, but that it could come from warring factions within the church during its beginning phases about whether or not women could become disciples of Christ. This could have an effect on the clergy in some churches that have until this time refused women in higher authority positions.

Source: TIME Magazine


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 04-10-2014 1:12 PM PaulK has taken no action

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 8 of 11 (723888)
04-10-2014 5:42 PM


Mozel tov!
The original U of Arizona dating was several centuries before Jesus, which could not be accurate, then in one part of the article it says the fragment is similar to others from 400-800 CE and then in another the ink is consistent with those from 400 BCE to 800 CE.

I do not know of this Laurie Goodstein but she is an american reporter for an american news corporation so chances are she has no friggin clue what the hell she is reporting. Without having read the actual dating study being reported here I'm not so sure we can say what age range was actually determined.

Then, again, I'm not sure it matters. The fragment is, apparently, way way old. That's the actual scientific jargon of papyrologists. I guess you can make an ologist from just about anything these days.

In the deeper sense, does it really matter to any but the most misogynistic cults of religious zealots? Like the catholics and the protestants?

I read somewhere once, maybe someone here can confirm this, but as I recall, in that culture at that time, any male in an honored profession such as carpenter would have been married by arrangement before his mid-twenties whether he want to or not. It was just their way. Since there is a total lack of any myths about Jesus's earlier life, if he really existed in that culture at that time, he most probably was married. Even as "god", or some close relation, there is the valid assumption that he would have fit in with the going culture just as did everyone else.

Whether the papyrologists and the ancientinkyologists declare this fragment to be way way old instead of just way old won't really make any difference in this world anyway. Now, if the fragment spoke of Jesus's two older brothers, well then, that would have been something.

Edited by AZPaul3, : title


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by frako, posted 04-15-2014 9:02 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2523 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 11 (724218)
04-14-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
04-10-2014 11:10 AM


Re: Come Now....
Content removed. --Admin

Edited by Admin, : Possibly inappropriate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 11:10 AM Phat has taken no action

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 10 of 11 (724240)
04-15-2014 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
04-10-2014 5:42 PM


Re: Mozel tov!
In the deeper sense, does it really matter to any but the most misogynistic cults of religious zealots? Like the catholics and the protestants?

Sure it does, because everyone has a personal vision of Jesus and that's how he is in real life they can see the image in their head so it must be true, and no old document is gonna tell them otherwise, next their going to claim he was not a blue eyed blonde.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 5:42 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 04-15-2014 12:01 PM frako has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 11 of 11 (724257)
04-15-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by frako
04-15-2014 9:02 AM


Re: Mozel tov!
frako writes:

... next their going to claim he was not a blue eyed blonde.


But His wife was - you know how those Jewish boys love the shiksas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by frako, posted 04-15-2014 9:02 AM frako has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022