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Author Topic:   White Privilege
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19758
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1 of 276 (766323)
08-17-2015 8:24 AM


Cyanide comic ... http://explosm.net/comics/4027/

White privilege is subtle and pervasive ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-17-2015 6:57 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 1:44 PM RAZD has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12175
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 2 of 276 (766394)
08-17-2015 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-17-2015 8:24 AM


Reverse Discrimination?
Hello RAZD! I don't know whether you intended this topic to be a serious discussion of the social definition and application of white privilege or whether the irony of the cartoon was the focus.

Assuming the former, I will comment on this sociological status. As a white male, born into a middle class family, I was brought up unaware of any sort of privileged life. If anything, i sensed a bit of entitlement due to the fact that my father had worked hard to get to his station in life and I felt as if he paved the way for me to have an easy life. The opposite has been the case, but overall my life has been blessed.

Several years ago, a friend of mine who grew up in a minority culture (he is Latino) brought the whole idea of white privilege up to me. Quite naturally I saw it as an attack on me...sort of a reverse discrimination type of thing, and still feel that way, admittedly, from time to time. Quite honestly, i behave quite like the social scientists who write these books say I will behave. Im all for ending discrimination in society, but I'll be damned if i'm going to give up anything that i now have. (pray for me)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 08-17-2015 8:24 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2015 8:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 8:44 PM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(8)
Message 3 of 276 (766406)
08-17-2015 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
08-17-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
Im all for ending discrimination in society, but I'll be damned if i'm going to give up anything that i now have.

No one is asking you or anyone else to give up anything.

White privilege and male privilege are social phenomena most white men dont even know they have. They are not special privileges or special rights per se but are a deferential treatment in society. It is a level of personal and professional respect one receives over others just by being a white male.

This is a white mans society. The centers of influence and the levers of power are controlled by white men. Our European ancestors brought this form of social structure with them. Men were superior to women so men populated the councils and the courts. This was a majority white culture so whites dominated the councils and the courts.

The issues is, Phat, that after so many centuries this structure is so ingrained in our psyche we dont even notice when the same level of equal respect and equal treatment is not given to others. There still is a glass ceiling in corporate America that applies to non-whites and non-men. Pay disparity still exists. The equal pay for equal work mantra applies to both women and non-whites. From the work place to the courts we treat people of color, often in the most subtle of ways, different than we treat a fellow white male. That is white privilege. That is male privilege. And we white men never even see it. We dont notice. Were oblivious that our treatment of "them" in our society is any different then we treat our fellow white men.

The Black Lives Matter movement, like the Black Power and Black Pride memes of the past, is an attempt to get this white male-dominated social construct to see where we continue to be so blind.

The only way to improve all lives in this society is to acknowledge this privilege does exist, learn that there is a disparity in social respect at work in our culture and then be conscious of its subtle forms. White men cannot learn of this or see it operating just by flowing along believing we are color blind or giving, even heart felt, lip service to the notion that I am not a racist. These mean nothing and do nothing to affect change.

We need to actively engage gender and racial issues. And the best way for a white man to engage is to listen to the grievances, hear the stories, and pay attention to them. Swallow the fear. Dont argue. Dont get the dander up. Just open your eyes, shut the fuck up and listen.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 276 (766409)
08-17-2015 9:24 PM


Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Terms like 'white privilege' or 'male privilege' are nonsense buzzwords invented by brain-dead sociologists to avoid having to do actual analyses or, even worse, think.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2015 9:31 PM Jon has responded
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(6)
Message 5 of 276 (766410)
08-17-2015 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
08-17-2015 9:24 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Says the privileged white man.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 08-17-2015 9:24 PM Jon has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 276 (766411)
08-17-2015 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
08-17-2015 9:31 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Are you sure of that?

Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(3)
Message 7 of 276 (766413)
08-17-2015 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
08-17-2015 8:58 PM


Privilege Revisited
AZPaul3 writes:

They are not special privileges or special rights per se but are a deferential treatment in society. It is a level of personal and professional respect one receives over others just by being a white male.

I largely agree with your analysis of white privilege and the need for white men to put away the resentment and paranoia. But the most important and insidious aspect to white privilege is that it doesn't depend on personal bias. Systemic inequities disadvantage nonwhites and women in ways that have nothing to do with interpersonal animus.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's important for white males to examine their unacknowledged biases and be conscientious about the way they address and interact with nonwhites and women. But the larger problem is that the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, mass incarceration and female disenfranchisement have left the playing field so far from level that being really nice to one another isn't going to improve anything at the deeper social level.

Here's what I mean. There's a study going around about the way resumes bearing white-sounding names get picked by personnel recruiters much more often than those with ethnic-sounding names. I don't dispute this finding, and I think there's still a lot of racial bias in hiring and advancement. But the point is that even if there weren't names on the resumes at all, the ones from white candidates are more likely to be chosen because the nonwhite candidates have been disadvantaged in education, experience, credit history, the justice system, and many other factors by which employers assess candidates. Whites have gained advantage in an unfair system, so of course their accomplishments are going to be more considerable.

When the affirmative action program was instituted to try to rectify this unfair advantage, white men raised holy hell over the same perception of "reverse discrimination" that people have mentioned here. Part of white privilege is the resentment of admitting that the white man's supremacy hasn't been earned through fair competition in a meritocracy, but because of inequities which have been constantly reinforced over the course of centuries.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 8 of 276 (766414)
08-17-2015 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
08-17-2015 9:42 PM


Re: Privilege Revisited
But the most important and insidious aspect to white privilege is that it doesn't depend on personal bias. Systemic inequities disadvantage nonwhites and women in ways that have nothing to do with interpersonal animus.

The effects of white-male privilege permeating through the entire social construct roll up and reinforce the privilege. As you say, the insidious part is we are blind to it happening, it's almost like instinct, we don't even know we're doing it. I consider your message the embodiment to my prelude. Thank you.


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3708
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 9 of 276 (766415)
08-17-2015 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
08-17-2015 9:42 PM


Minor humor aside
Here's what I mean. There's a study going around about the way resumes bearing white-sounding names get picked by personnel recruiters much more often than those with ethnic-sounding names.

I believe I heard this story somewhere on National Public Radio (NPR) a while back.

A guy, whose name IIRC was Jameel, was telling his story. He had applied for a job at some (I believe) college, and they decided they should hire him to diversify their ethnicity. Then they were surprised when a white guy showed up.

No replies needed.

Moose


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Phat
Member
Posts: 12175
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 276 (766416)
08-18-2015 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
08-17-2015 9:42 PM


Re: Privilege Revisited
When the affirmative action program was instituted to try to rectify this unfair advantage, white men raised holy hell over the same perception of "reverse discrimination" that people have mentioned here. Part of white privilege is the resentment of admitting that the white man's supremacy hasn't been earned through fair competition in a meritocracy, but because of inequities which have been constantly reinforced over the course of centuries.

wiki writes:

At issue in affirmative action cases is whether the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment can be employed to advance the welfare of one class of individuals for compelling social reasons even when that advancement may infringe in some way upon the life or liberty of another. The continuing existence of affirmative action laws and programs suggests that so far, the Supreme Court's answer has been yes.

I dont really have an opinion at this time, but would likely be so inclined should such a ruling hinder my life and welfare personally.

Perhaps I need to trust God more.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 08-17-2015 9:42 PM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by MrHambre, posted 08-18-2015 8:07 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 1494
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 11 of 276 (766422)
08-18-2015 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
08-18-2015 12:06 AM


Re: Privilege Revisited
Phat writes:

I dont really have an opinion at this time, but would likely be so inclined should such a ruling hinder my life and welfare personally.


The paragraph of mine you quoted concerned affirmative action, the thrust of which was to try to rememdy systemic inequities in ways that don't hinder the life or welfare of the privileged; in hiring, a white candidate is more likely to be chosen for a job (even in a blind selection process) given the white community's better educational system, access to credit, and less intensive surveillance by law enforcement. If the black candidate is chosen over the white one through affirmative action, the white candidate is still more likely to land a job elsewhere.

Do you feel that systemic inequities exist in the USA? If so, what can be done about them?


This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3100
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 12 of 276 (766431)
08-18-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
08-17-2015 8:58 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?

White privilege and male privilege are social phenomena most white men dont even know they have. They are not special privileges or special rights per se but are a deferential treatment in society. It is a level of personal and professional respect one receives over others just by being a white male.

If you don't have to think about it, it's a privilege.

They did an experiment, and put out a huge number of identical resumes for job applications. The only diffidence between set one and set two was the one set had a typical European sounding name , the other had one that was distinctly black. They found that there were positive responses for getting an interview much more likely for the white sounding names (3 times as many) than the black sounding names.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 13 of 276 (766438)
08-18-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
08-17-2015 9:40 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Jon writes:

Are you sure of that?


Are we sure you're white? We can only go with the evidence we have. Walks like a duck + talks like a duck = duck , with a pretty high confidence level. We don't often hear cows quacking and we don't often hear black people scoffing at the idea of white privilege.
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 Message 6 by Jon, posted 08-17-2015 9:40 PM Jon has responded

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 14 of 276 (766445)
08-18-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
08-17-2015 9:24 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Terms like 'white privilege' or 'male privilege' are nonsense buzzwords invented by brain-dead sociologists to avoid having to do actual analyses or, even worse, think.

[citation needed]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 08-17-2015 9:24 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 276 (766465)
08-18-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-17-2015 8:24 AM


some privilege
Even granting that white privilege exists as described by some here, the problem I think Phat is trying to bring to the table is that middle class and working class whites hardly feel privileged, and when we hear that we are we resent those who seem to us to be trying to bump us off the social map with their claims of being underprivileged and deserving special treatment.

I didn't grow up in the South and my family was decidedly "blue collar" working class. It's unfortunate but I never knew any blacks until I grew up and then it was in the context of being called their oppressor. Out of the blue it seemed. You're going along trying to cope with the disadvantages of your own situation and then you get accused of disadvantaging someone else and it's hard not to feel unfairly targeted.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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