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Author Topic:   Did Christianity get the Lord's Super from a Mithraic religion? Any other borrowings?
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1 of 5 (776851)
01-21-2016 12:16 PM


In another thread, there was a discussion of Christianity possibly taking the Lord's Supper idea from a type of Mithra religion (usually the one in the Roman Empire is the focus). I want to examine this possibility (and it is just a possibility) that Jesus was influenced. First of all, let me be clear what I am not saying. I am not saying that Osirus and the so-called parallel there has any validity. I don't agree at all with the Gerald Massey type fabrications. This article sums up my view:
quote:
The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions
John Bowker (ed.)
Oxford University Press (1997)
p.299
Dying and rising Gods. Deities found in the Mediterranean world which suggested a general 'myth and ritual' pattern, which in turn was then applied to many other figures, including *Jesus. The pattern was supposed to be one in which the king represented God in a New Year ritual, in which he was symbolically slain, thereafter rising from the dead: this was supposed to have secured fertility. Figures such as Adonis, Isis, and Osiris, Marduk, Tammuz/Dumuzi were claimed for this pattern. This particular instance of a myth and ritual pattern was largely the product of J. G. *Frazer's fertile, but anti-Christian and anti-religious imagination: more attention to evidence has not confirmed the existence of such a pattern.
Bill Maher resurrected this straw-man , in his movie,for "apologists" to kick down.
The issue I am interested in is if the Lord's Super of Jesus, which was parallel to the Roman Mithraic ritual meal, came from a parallel that predated Jesus. (Justin Martyr said there was a duplicate meal practiced in the Mithrais religion during his time)
One has to look to India and Iran if one can even begin to consider the possibility that there is a parallel to the Mithraic ritual meal pre-dating Jesus' diea from c30 A.D.
The Achaemenid Period in Iran is about 650-300.
quote:
Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture 1st Edition
William Stiebing
Longman 1st edition (2002)
P.308
The religion embraced by the Persians and most other Iranians of the Achaemenid Period was founded by an early teacher named Zarathustra (Zoroaster in Greek). He was a priest of the old Iranian religion which was closely related to that of Vedic India. However, he was also a prophet who believed that he had revelations from God concerning the way to salvation. ...almost all scholars specializing in Zoroastrian studies now agree that the prophet must have lived ...sometimebetween c. 1400 and 900 BCE. This is the era that produced the Hindu Rig-Veda, a work whose language is very similar to the Gathas, poetic compositions that scholars generally agree derive from Zoroaster himself. Such antiquity is also necessary to explain the difference in language between the Gathas and later portions of the Avesta (the Zoroastrian sacred book) that were developed to explain the Gathas and incorporate them into worship. Morever, Greek writers of the forth century B.C.E., basing their accounts on those of Persian informants, placed Zoroaster thousands of years before their own time, a tradition that is unlikely to have developed if he had really been a sixth-century B.C.E. contemporary of Cambyses I and Cyrus the Great. ...The Gathas, Zoroasters 17 hymns or prayers, written in a difficult-to-understand eastern Iranian dialect, provide the only reliable information on his life and teachings.
Before Zoroaster's time, Iranians seem to have been polytheists whose religion was a form of animism. ...As in the Vedic religion, there were probably two classes of deities, Ahuras (called Asuras in India) who were heavenly and remote from humans and daevas (devas in India) who were nature deities and war gods more intimately associated with humans. ...Worship consisted largely of daily open-air ritual offerings to fire and water with occasional animal sacrifices during which the participants became ritually intoxicated by drinking the fermented juice of the haoma plant (soma in India).
The Soma/Haoma drink is a major area of interest here.
quote:
The Ancient Near East
Ancient History (Book 1)
Wadsworth Publishing 1 edition (1997)
p.284
...we know with certainty is that the drinking of its mind-altering juice was a central rite not only of the primitive religion of Iran but also of the similar religion of northwest India, though the beverage was called haoma in Iran and soma in India. In both India and Iran the euphoric intoxication induced by the powerful drug of the drink was thought to purvey a glimpse of immortality and a sense of unity with the gods.
....
Like their cousins practicing the Vedic religion in India, the early Iranians divided their deities into two categories, namely the Daevas (devas in Sanskrit) and the Ahuras (asuras in Sanskrit). In Iran the daevas were regarded as malevolent and the ahuras benevolent, but this system was reversed in Vedic India.The Iranian and Indian religion underwent a widening rift, resulting from the gods of one becoming the demons of the other. One of the lesser ahuras doing his will was Mithra (Mitra in Sanskrit)...
Interesting. We will follow that later.
quote:
Dunstan
p.284
A drastic reformation of the Iranian religion occurred under the forceful message of the reforming prophet Zoroaster, one of the great religious figures of all times. The Zoroastrian sources consist of the Avesta - the Zoroastrian scriptures - and various later religious texts. Scholars generally agree that the oldest part of the Avesta is formed by the Gathas, or hymns, composed in archaic language and reputedly the very words of the great prophet himself, though preserved orally for centuries before being written down. The Gathas stand as the foremost source of information about the life and teachings of Zoroaster.
quote:
Stiebing
p.309
He proclaimed that the uncreated and eternal god, Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord" or "Lord of Wisdom") was totally good, wise and beneficent. But this benevolent deity was opposed by another uncreated being, Angra Mainu (the "Evil" or "Destructive Spirit"), who was wholly evil, obtuse, and malevolent. (In later Zoroastrianism, the names of these deities were contracted into Ormazd and Ahiram.)
Supporting Ahura Mazda were the Amesha Spentas ("Holy" or "Bounteous Immortals"): the Holy Spirit (Spenta Mainu, which later was sometimes seen as just another name for Ahura Mazda), Desirable Dominion, Wholeness (or Health), Immortality, Holy Devotion, Good Purpose, and Best Truth (or Best Righteousness). These beings were both independent deities and aspects of Ahura Mazda himself, but they also could enter human beings who choose to follow the Wise Lord. Zoroaster also acknowledged the existence of the old ahuras ("Lords") as beneficient angel-like beings sent out by the Amesha Spentas. On the other hand, the prophet claimed that the daevas were malicious servants of Angra Mainu who, like their master, were to be denounced and opposed. Thus, in Zoroastrianism, Daeva came to mean "demon." In India, the opposite development occurred, with the Asuras in time being regarded as demons, while the devas became the only true gods.
....
...ideas of Zoroaster constitute the earliest known systematic eschatology, that is, teachings about "final things" or the end of the world.
Zoroaster not only assailed the Daevas worshiped during his lifetime( the most important of which was Indra), but also attacked animal sacrifice (or at least the cruel way it was performed) and the use of the Haoma beverage during sacrificial rites. These ideas caused him to be rejected and persecuted by his own people. He fled to eastern Iranian tribe where he managed to convert the chieftan named Vishtaspa (who should not be confused with a later namesake, the father of Darius I). ...Zoroaster's religion began to spread, probably reaching the western Iranian Medes and Persians sometime during the eighth century B.C.E.
The Haoma came back later. Ill cover that after I cover the Indian side.
quote:
Dunstan
p.285
The prophet expressed wrath at animal sacrifice, or at least the cruelty of cutting the throats of fully conscious bulls ...condemned all the daevas as demonic beings
....
According to the Gathas, the prophet taught that Ahura Mazda fashioned both heaven and earth as well as the moral order. Thus Ahura Mazda alone is worthy of worship.
....
Zoroaster explained that Ahura Mazda fashioned the physical world in seven stages: the first was sky, the second water, the third earth, the fourth vegetation, the fifth animals, the sixth humankind, and the seventh fire. Passages in the Gathas lead to the conclusion that Ahura Mazda created the universe through the Spenta Mainyu, or Holy Spirit, regarded as his divine attribute rather than a being apart from him. Additionally, Zoroaster explsined that Ahura Mazda created the Amesha Spentas, or Holy Immortals, six celestial beings (conceived also as archangels)...
Dustan separated the Holy Spirit from the other 6.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p1069 Zoroaster...There, are, he taught, two opposing forces, the Bounteous Spirit of Mazda and the destructive power of *Angra Mainyu who created respectively life and non-life.
....
Central to Zoroaster's belief in Ahura Mazda are the *Amesha Spentas, a system of seven spirits which in later tradition at least were opposed to seven evil spirits.
These were from the Gathas (part of the Avesta which included later material embedded, but clearly and openly distinguished by the Iranians) which every linguist in the world date back about to the time of the Vedas.
quote:
p.70
Angra Mainyu (Pahlavi Ahriman). The 'Destructive Spirit' or 'devil' in Zoroastrianism. ...In the Gathas, *Zoroaster declared, on the basis of his vision, Then shall I speak of the two Primal Spirits of existence, of whom the Very Holy thus spoke to the Evil One: "Neither our thoughts nor teachings nor wills, neither our choices nor words nor acts, not our inner selves nor souls agree" ' (Ys. 45.2)
I am trying to only focus on the undisputedly pre-500 BCE material.
The only way one can focus on the undisputed old material is to look at the Vedas and Gathas (along with Hittite and Hurrian texts). It is difficult to entirely separate the older from younger developments in most historical treatments (especially of Hindu texts) but I will try.
Here is Soma
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.913
Because of its power, it was regarded as the 'food of immortality', i.e. of resisting death, amrta. The power of soma is manifested in the *Vedas in the god Soma, who is associated with *Agni; all 114 hymns of Rg Veda 9 are addressed to Soma.The ways of preparing and drinking Soma are carefully described, and it is said to make one acquire the eight powers of the god.
2. Hindu moon god who protects herbs and rides in a chariot drawn by white horses or antelopes. The moon is the cup of soma (above).
Looks like we better not forget Agni.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.648
Mitra. Hindu Vedic god, one of the *Adityas, 'he who awakens people at daybreak and prompts them to work' (Rg. Veda 3. 59. I). Because mitra means 'friend', Mitra is usually associated with another god in partnership, especially *Varuna. Mitra-Varuna are handsome, shining, and young. They are appointed kings by the *devas, and *Soma is pressed for them. Since Mitra rules over day, Varuna rules over night.
J. Gonda, Mitra (1972)
Mithra and Varuna were featured in a c.1400 BCE treaty as prominent Gods of the Hurrians. Google "Hittite Hurrian treaty Varuna Mithra" and see evidence for a very early entry of Mithra into the Middle East.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p. 1016
Varuna. Early Hindu god, prominent in the Vedic period. Possibly connected with vr ('veil'), he was associated with the all-covering sky, but in the *Vedas his activities resemble those of *Indra and *Agni. As a ruler of the *Adityas, he maintains celestial order, especially the seasons, sunrise and sunset, rainfall (Rg Veda 6. 48. 14,10. 99. 10). As Lord of *rta, he watches over humanity with a thousand eyes and he shares responsibility for sacrificial order. He is also connected with the emergent and related concept of *dharma. He remains particularly connected with oceans and rivers, though in later mythology Indra has taken precedence over him and he has been reduced to the god of death.
We will follow Adityas and Dharma
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.32
Adityas. In Hinduism, the ruling principles which constrain the universe into its outcomes. In personified form, they are the sons of *Aditi. They are associated closely with the sun as the source of life, and became eventually twelve in number to correspond to the twelve solar months. Initially, there were eight sons, of whom one, Martanda, was born as a lifeless egg (or misshapen foetus), but was given the shape and life of the sun by the other Adityas, who thus share in the power of the sun. The eight are identified with the Vasas, the eight spheres of existence. When the number was extended to twelve (e.g. Taittirriya Aranyaka I. 13 and sunsequent texts) and they were identified with the twelve ruling principles, they were usually (but with occasional variants) listed as Amsa (the share of the gods), Aryaman (generous nobility), Ohaga (due inheritance), Daksa (ritual skill), *Mitra (constancy in friendship), Pusan (prosperity), Sakra (courage), Savitr (power of words), Tvastr (skill in creft and technique), *Varuna (fate), *Vishnu (cosmic law), Vivasvat (social law). In later times, the name Aditya came to be applied to any god (so fundamental are the twelve principles to the sustenance of the cosmos), though it was especially applied to *Surya, the sun.
Aditya-Sunu, son of the sun, was the name of Sugriva, the monkey-king of the *Ramayana, and others. In Buddihism, Aditya is a name given to the Buddah.
Lets follow Surya (havn't forgotten about Dharma though)
quote:
p.931
Surya, Savitar, or Savitar (nourisher). In Hinduism, the sun. As the source of heat and life, Surya is supreme among the * Adityas, and one of the three chief gods of the *Vedas - indeed since Aditya means 'son of the primordial vastness' and thus also 'the source', Aditya may be a synonym for Surya. He is ruler of the domain of life, and the gateway to immortality (Chandogya Upanishad 8. 6. 5). As illumination, he resides within as the source of wisdom (Maitri Upanisad 6. 34). Later, he was superseded by *Visnu. Surya is the daughter of Surya, who appears in Rg Veda 10. 6ff.
That brings us to Vishnu
Now back to Agni (mentioned earlier in the Soma entry)
quote:
pp.29-30
Agni (skt., 'fire'; cf. Lat., ignis). The god of fire in Hinduism, of great importance, especially in the *Vedic period. As *sacrifice is at the centre of Vedic religion, Agni is at the center of sacrifice. As messenger of the gods, Agni is mediator between humankind and the heavenly realm, All offerings must pass through the sacred fire to reach their destinations. Agni is the witness of all sacred transactions, the benefactor and protector of people and their homes, and guardian (loka-pala)of the south-east quadrant of the universe. His three principal forms include not only fire on earth, but also lightening in the sky. In a sense Agni personifies all the gods, the power of the divine, immanent in all things. He is understood as the source of knowledge (the *Veda), both god of priests and priest of the gods, and potent enemy of darkness. Ever youthful, he bestows life and immortality.
The Hindu Trimurti ended up becoming Brahma (replacing Agni it seems), Vishnu, and Shiva.
Before one gets to the relevant texts, one has to understand the cultural developments that led to certain texts being written. There was a peaceful, meditative movement that brought us Buddhism and Jainism. A missionary king Asoka spread the peaceful, vegetarian religion throughout the world - and the middle east.
Edicts of Ashoka - Wikipedia
quote:
p.32
Ahimsa (Skt., 'not harming'). Avoiding injury to any sentient creature through act or thought ...In Hinduism, it is not much discussed in early texts, perhaps because it was recognized that it might be in conflict with *dharma (e.g. duty of the warrior). According to Manusmrti II. 222, a *brahman should make daily offerings, observe ahimsa, tell the truth, eradicate anger, and be trustworthy; ahimsa appears in Chandogya Upanisad 3. 17. 4 (in a passage making sacrifice a controlling metaphor for human life) as part of the equivalent of *daksina, in *Patanjali's Yoga Sutra 2. 35, ahimsa is one of the five restraints (*yamsa). Both Buddhism and Jainism give much more emphasis to ahimsa, perhaps because ahimsa reinforced their rejection of sacrifice (since sacfifice necessarily involves violence against animals). It is the first of five precepts of Buddhist life (*sila), and *Asoka regarded his adoption of ahimsa as 'the greatest progress' he had made (The Pillar Edict).
It lead to the Bhagavad Gita to be written ( c.200 BCE) which defended the honor of fighting. This polemical writing brought us the concept of Vishnu incarnating in a female and becoming human.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.432
A particular form of manifestation is that of 'incarnation', *avatara. In Bhagavad-Gita 4. 7f, Visnu says, 'Whenever dharma is forgotten, whenever lawlessness prevails, I manifest myself in every age I return to deliver the righteous and to establish dharma.'
....
p.139
the date is uncertain, but c. 200 BCE is likely
Krishna was the 8th Avatar of Vishu. He became something of an eternal spirit of his own. He is said to return as distinct from Vishnu. That is a later development I think.
Shiva the destroyer seems to have become a head of the demons in Zoroastrianism. Angra Mainyu and Shiva seem to be parallels. No "Trimurti" in Zoroastrianism.
But God (Mazda) and the Holy Spirit seem to be related to Brahma and Vishnu.
quote:
Avatar and incarnation
Wilde lectures in natural and comparative religion
Geoffrey Parrinder
(1970)
p.14
An avatara is a descent, a 'down coming' (from a verb tri, to cross over, attain, save, with the prefix ava, down; and so ava-tri, descend into, appear, become incarnate).
This isn't in Zoroastriamism either.
But.
quote:
Dunstan
p.286
Zoroaster's teachings constitute the first systematic treatment of eschatology, that is, a system of doctrines concerning the afterlife or the end of the world. The Gathas frequently refer to the fate of humanity beyond death. Each soul is evaluated in an individual judgment.
quote:
Stiebing
p.310
During the period after Zoroaster's death, several changes occurred in his religion.
....
Other customs of the old religion such as offering food and clothing to the dead and even the use of Haoma in some rites also made their way back into Zoroastrian practice. Finally, though Zoroaster had challenged all people to be saoshyants or agents of the world's reemption, after his death his followers adopted the belief that during the End Times, the Shaoshyant, a miraculously born savior, would lead the forces of Good to victory in a final battle against evil.
quote:
Dunistan
p.272
Fall of Babylon (539 BCE).
... 539 BCE the armies of Cyrus rumbled into Babylonia...
....
Exercising the same religious tolerance for which many of his successors were noted, Cyrus restored the worship of Marduk ... we saw in chapter 10 that he issued a decree permitting the Jewish exiles to return home from Babylonia and rebuild their Temple at Jerusalem. The Jews praised Cyrus in their Bible, referring to him in the book of Isaiah (45:1) as Yahweh's "anointed," a term usually reserved as a title for a king in Israel or Judah. The Hebrew word meaning Yahweh's anointed is rendered in English as messiah, a divinely appointed savior. the description of Cyrus as a messiah in the Hebrew Bible signifies the very high esteem in which the Jews held him.
Switch to the Jewish issues.
quote:
Dunstan
p.228
THE DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINES OFFERING A FUTURE HOPE
DEATH AND AFTERLIFE
Sheol. Besides their four fundamental convictions about Yahweh, the Hebrews developed other key doctrines, most notably those concerning hope for the future. ...For centuries the Hebrews lacked a clear concept of human destiny beyond the grave, for they held to the vague idea of Sheol, a dreary abode below the earth where the dead lingered on without memory of their former lives (Gen 37:35, ps. 88:3-12).
Immortality of the Soul. In the postexilic period, and especially in the Hellenistic period after the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BCE, concepts surrounding death and afterlife underwent fundamental alterations. Jewish texts from the Hellenistic and Roman periods betray several irreconcilable beliefs about the afterlife. One doctrine making inroads among the Jews at the time was a belief in the immortality of the soul, but not the rising of the body. This notion was inherited from the Greek religion and reflects the Platonic idea that body and soul are separate entities, the soul constituting the true essence of a person. Central to the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is the belief that the soul is liberated from the imprisoning body at death to seek a higher life.
p.229
Resurrection. A related but opposing belief gaining ground was that of resurrection, or the revival of the entire psycho-physical person after a period of death. Apparently this concept was borrowed from Zoroastrianism, the Persian religion, which seems to have profoundly influenced the development of Greek thought and, later, the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. A blanket term, resurrection covers similar concepts, but essentially means the soul will be rejoined with the body at the end of time. The doctrine is often fused with notions of final rewards and punishments. The only unambiguous reference to resurrection occurs in the very late book of Daniel, where we read that at the termination of the age, "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2). This portrayal does not include the consignment of the resurrected dead to a heaven or hell, an idea nowhere appearing in the Hebrew Bible. We also read that the resurrection will come with the arrival of the divine warrior Michael (Dan. 12:1), a celestial prince, or archangel, who reflects the elaborate angelology developing in postexilic times, often attributable to Zoroastrian influence. The evolving doctrine of resurrection was far from universal among the Jews of the ancient world, however, and the belief remains a matter of personal choice in present-day Judaism, a religion that has always emphasized the arena of this world rather than any possible afterlife.
p.230
MESSIANIC HOPE AND APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE
A Messiah as a Monarch and Military Deliverer. Another aspect of the attitude of hope for the future revolved around the idea of a Messiah, a term derived from the common biblical word meaning "anointed one." The rite of anointing was mandatory for accession to the kingship, and the Hebrew Bible applies the designation Messiah, or anointed one, most often to kings, though also on occasion to high priests and others. Additional figures are described as anointed ones. We read that when the kingdom of Judah was under threat from the Assyrians and later the Babylonians, the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold a Yahweh-sent Messiah, a future king of the house of David who would rule in glory and righteousness. This hope of a king overcoming oppressive powers by force of arms remained widespread during the period of Roman rule.
A Messiah as a Divine Savior. Other Jews developed a fundamentally different vision of the messianic hope, expecting not a military deliverer but a divine savior who would come through cosmic miracles and cataclysms. Apparently this concept of the Messiah was derived from the figure of Shaoshyant, the Savior in the Zoroastrian religion.
....
The Influence of Apocalyptic Literature. The idea of the Messiah as a divine savior was highly influenced by apocalyptic literature, that is, ecstatic writing attempting to describe through the hidden meanings of cryptic language of the final struggle between Yahweh and the forces of evil. Writers of apocalypse interpreted history as an ascending series of evils that would culminate with a supreme climax of wickedness in the near future. They encouraged the faithful by promising Yahweh's speedy intervention to terminate the present world order, reward the righteous, and damn the ungodly. Arising in the writings of Zoroastrianism, apocalyptic literature became more fully developed in Judaism, where the genre flourished from about 200 BCE until the close of the first century CE. We encounter the enigmatic figure of the Son of Man in a number of these texts. Originally regarded as a symbol of the children of Israel (as depicted in Daniel 7:13-18), in later writings (as the pseudoepigraphical work of Enoch) the Son of Man becomes a messianic figure, a preexistent heavenly being in human form, who will come in glory at the end of earthly time in an association with the divine kingship of Yahweh.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.265
The development of beliefs that there might be life beyond death came about historically in different ways ...In the Judaeo-Christian tradition, the belief developed in the 3rd or 2nd cent. BCE that the 'friendship with God' (as *Abraham's relationship with God was described) might perhaps be continued by God through death.
Here is the situation by the time of Jesus.
quote:
Dunstan
p.234
They [Pharisees] embraced beliefs in the resurrection of the body, life after death, and the advent of the Messiah, apocalyptic ideas presumably borrowed from the religion of Zoroastrianism.
Then the Temple authorities. The Saducees.
quote:
p.235
...a party speaking for the interests of the ruling establishment, the upper-class priests in control of the Temple, and the affluent commercial and landed interests. ...Supporters of ancient religious traditions, [236] the Sadducees opposed innovations such as the doctrine of resurrection of the dead and life after death, claiming these beliefs had no foundation in the Torah. They looked to a strict observance of the Torah...
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
Sadducees. Jewish sect of the second *Temple period. ...As Temple *priests, they dominated Temple worship and formed a large portion of *Sanhedrin members. ...The *Talmud uses the term interchangeably with *Boethusian, both being groups that denied the resurrection and *afterlife.
The Herodians?
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
157
Boethusians. A Jewish sect of the 1st cent. BCE/CE. ...Like the Sadducees, they did not accept the doctrine of the *resurrection of the dead, but politically, unlike the Sadducees, they seem to have supported the dynasty of King *Herod.
What we have is a period of an invisible religion developing in Judaism.
quote:
Oxford Dictionary
p.476
Invisible religion. Religious beliefs and practices which are held in parallel with (or association with) those of the official religion to which the person concerned belongs: it is thus closely associated with non-official religion. They include such items as superstition and the paranormal and also...beliefs and practices derived from other religions
Back to the Zoroastrian source.
quote:
Dunstan
p.289
The reintroduced haoma ceremony served as the central rite of ancient Zoroastrianism. the juice of the haoma plant was prized for imparting extraordinary hallucinatory experiences and great spiritual gifts. In antiquity the sacramental Haoma was probably partaken by the entire community, not just the priests, its powerful drug said to have produced an exhilarating sense of contentment and joy without causing any harmful effects whatsoever. The divine Haoma was believed to act as both sacrificial victim and priest in the ancient haoma rite, dying in the extraction of the juice but then overcoming death and offering a foretaste of eternal life to those nourished by his sacred drink. Scholars note that the ancient haoma sacrifice represents a remarkable forerunner of the Christian Eucharist.
Unfortunately, scholars are unable to disentangle the worship of the ancient Zoroastrians from that of the current devotees of the faith. Present-day Zoroastrians priests conduct many of the rites in temples, ...Worship includes praying to Ahura Mazda and reciting the Avesta. Performed by priests in special attire, the central role of Zoroastrianism remains the offering of haoma juice - now devoid of hallucinogenic properties - along with bread, water, and other elements to Ahura Mazda to aid humans in their quest for righteousness and salvation.
p.289
Zoroastrian teachings found their way into other religions. We saw in chapter 11 that postexilic Judaism borrowed various concepts from Zoroastrianism, including a demonic Satan, clearly a version of Ahiram. Later, about 250 BCE, apocalyptic literature began to spear in Jewish circles. This style of writing claims to reveal things normally hidden and to unveil the future. Showing an almost certain debt to Zoroastrian thought, Jewish apocalyptic literature includes doctrines such as an evil Satan, an angelic hierarchy, heaven and hell, judgment after death and at the end of the world, resurrection, of the body, a cosmic dualism of good and evil forces led respectively by the archangel Michael and by Satan, and a future Savior and messianic kingdom in which righteousness will prevail. The early Christians incorporated these beliefs circulating within ancient Judaism as essential doctrines in their own religion. Morover, although directly derived from Jewish writings (the pseudoepigraphical book of Enoch and the apocryphal book of Tobit), the seven spirits of God mentioned in the book of Revelation in the New Testament (Rev. 1:4) probably have their ultimate origin in the Holy Immortals and the Holy Spirit of Zoroastrianism.
William Stiebing says
quote:
p.310
...though the Gathas and the rest of the Avesta were preserved only orally for more than a thousand years (they were not written down until sometime between the third and fifth centuries C.E.), Zoroastrian ideas were almost certainly present in Persia and Mesopotamia early enough for Judean exiles to be influenced by them.
Zoroastrians had the rewards and punishments afterlife in the Gathas (a persons good deeds got them across the Chinvat Bridge). As well as the Satan like figure and the Holy Spirit.
Google

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-21-2016 1:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 5 (776859)
01-21-2016 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
01-21-2016 12:16 PM


Hi LamarkNewAge,
Could I ask for a rewrite consisting primarily of your own words? Brief supporting quotes for your arguments are preferred, along with links to the sources if available online.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-21-2016 12:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

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 Message 3 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-21-2016 2:48 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 3 of 5 (776862)
01-21-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-21-2016 1:54 PM


None of my quotes are online.
I am trying to show something that is rarely explored. The Hindu side of the Mithra Jesus/God parallel.
I can't use online sources to connect the dots because they too often conflate too many "Mithras" from different periods. I am only able to make my point using the Oxford dictionary (or another one like it that covers Indian entries and definitions)
The issue is that many today say that Jesus got his ideas (actually many say Jesus didn't exist and Paul invented the story)from the Mithraic Mystery cult from Rome. Critics say that the evidence for the cult is late, and that there is nothing to connect it to Persia. They deny that Iran had anything like the Lord's Supper issue.
How about if you leave my OP post here, and then I will start another one in my own words (not now though). But people have to be able to see the definitions and academic support for the historical details.
Few Christians know that the afterlife is almost wholly absent in the Old Testament.
All of the Torah (5 Mosaic books)
All of the Historical books (Joshua-2 Kings plus Chronicles, Ezra-Nemiah)
All of the Psalms.
All of Job.
All of the Proverbs.
All of Isaiah
All of Jeremiah
All of Ezekiel
All of the 12 Minor Prophets.
Afterlife is absent.
One has to know that the academic experts can't find any evidence except for the post-Cyrus books. (EDIT Post-Cyrus book Daniel)
Preachers don't tell people that the Sadducees(mentioned in the New Testament!) are CONSERVATIVE and are infact the Jews who ran the Temple. They tell people the Sadducees are "liberals" (J Vernon McGhee pulled that stunt).
It won't do any good to leave out the quotes, infact my argument will go nowhere.
I can't make the argument without these quotes. My own words will be hollow without them.
For now, lets just leave my OP intact. I'll think of something.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-21-2016 1:54 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 4 of 5 (776863)
01-21-2016 3:04 PM


Ill try to connect in my own words the Soma God (also a sacred drink)with the God who (re-)incarnates Vishnu and all the other connections.
And its connections to Mithra.
The God/sacred-drink who comes to earth in spermless incarnations.
But I need to support the connections. I need the quotes.
I need proof that the eschatological details of Christianity are from the east.
As are all the major teachings and issues
Heaven
Hell
Afterlife
Judgment Day
The preachers don't tell anybody this. It needs to be documented.

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 5 of 5 (776865)
01-21-2016 4:30 PM


Moderator Response
From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. When introducing a new topic, please keep the message narrowly focused. Do not include more than a few points.
  2. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
A good thread proposal introduces the topic by providing some description or information, then making a few points or arguments, and it shouldn't be overly long. Only 641 of the words in your proposal were your own. The other 4272 words were quotes. Reverse the ratio and keep the total below a thousand words.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
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