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Author Topic:   This Bathroom Law Confusion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 166 (782856)
04-29-2016 3:13 PM


I don't think I understand this bathroom bill thing. Yes it bothers me to tamper with the normal male and female sex designation of bathrooms but as for the practical issues involved I don't get why people are worried about GAYS choosing to use the one they think they fit best psychologically. I mean if you're worried about children being molested shouldn't you worry about that happening to boys in the men's room rather than by female-identified males in the women's room? And gay men in the women's room aren't going to be a threat to little girls.
So what is the worry? Are they worried about predators taking advantage of the law and POSING as gay to get access to children or something like that? Are they worried about gays that don't clearly LOOK gay so it will be a matter of men looking like men in the women's room and so on?
I guess there might be a problem with transgenders like Jenner who says he identifies as a woman but is nevertheless a heterosexual male. He may be primping at the women's room mirror but nevertheless feeling attracted to the women in there? How does that get sorted out?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 04-29-2016 3:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 6 by nwr, posted 04-29-2016 3:48 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2016 9:19 AM Faith has replied
 Message 43 by 14174dm, posted 04-30-2016 8:53 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 54 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-01-2016 3:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 2 of 166 (782857)
04-29-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:13 PM


Transgender does not equal gay.
These laws are riling up the extreme right wing. Transgender individuals have been using the bathroom they are most comfortable with for decades. It's only now that bathroom laws are being proposed that people are getting their panties in a bunch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:37 PM Asgara has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 166 (782858)
04-29-2016 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Asgara
04-29-2016 3:34 PM


Yes but in a bunch about what exactly? Some say it's worries about molesting of children, which doesn't make sense as I say; others say it's about "privacy." Are they just not imagining the actual situation or is there a problem I'm not grasping?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by DrJones*, posted 04-29-2016 3:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2016 6:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 4 of 166 (782860)
04-29-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:37 PM


the hysteria seems to be about "male child molesters using women's bathrooms to molest little girls". But there's no outrage that those male child molesters would be in male washrooms with little boys. It's just straight up anti LBGT bigotry.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:47 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 166 (782863)
04-29-2016 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by DrJones*
04-29-2016 3:42 PM


I certainly understand people not wanting all this gender confusion being imposed on us, and I don't think that's bigotry, but I'm trying to figure out the actual problems if there are any. I agree with you about the danger of molestation being more likely with the present designation, as I said, but I keep thinking I'm missing something. Also, if people have already been using the sex-designated room of their preference without problems why do we need a law at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by DrJones*, posted 04-29-2016 3:42 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by DrJones*, posted 04-29-2016 4:06 PM Faith has not replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 6 of 166 (782864)
04-29-2016 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:13 PM


I don't think I understand this bathroom bill thing.
You seem to understand it quite well.
as for the practical issues involved I don't get why people are worried about GAYS choosing to use the one they think they fit best psychologically.
Yes, this is about right.
So what is the worry?
They lost on gay marriage, so they feel a need to take a stand. Strangely, they are taking a stand on another issue which they will lose.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 7 of 166 (782865)
04-29-2016 4:03 PM


It's simple.
It's election and fund raising time so any way that a pot can be stirred is the right thing to do. What, got no issues? Make one up.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 8 of 166 (782866)
04-29-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:47 PM


Also, if people have already been using the sex-designated room of their preference without problems why do we need a law at all?
because the right needs to stir it's base up.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
ooh-child
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


(2)
Message 9 of 166 (782867)
04-29-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Asgara
04-29-2016 3:34 PM


These laws are riling up the extreme right wing.
This.
Groups like ALEC come up with legislation every election cycle to get the base angry at some religious slight, and thus driving them to the polls.
American Legislative Exchange Council
In 2008 it was Prop 8 & the like. This year it's a non-existent problem with public restrooms, just as it was in the 1970s when Phyllis Schlafley told everyone that the ERA would lead to men using women's public restrooms.
I remember how she got a bunch of people to reverse their votes in the legislature, by riling up the conservatives at the time over fear & bathrooms. I lived in Idaho at the time.
Everything old is new again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 04-29-2016 3:34 PM Asgara has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 166 (782869)
04-29-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:37 PM


Some say it's worries about molesting of children, which doesn't make sense as I say; others say it's about "privacy." Are they just not imagining the actual situation or is there a problem I'm not grasping?
What you describe are exactly the arguments used by the governor of NC when defending the current law making transgender people go to their birth certificate defined bathroom. So I suggest that there is likely no hidden problem that you are not grasping.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 11 of 166 (782871)
04-29-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:47 PM


Faith writes:
quote:
I certainly understand people not wanting all this gender confusion being imposed on us
So much wrong in a single sentence.
There is no confusion. Trans men are men and thus use the men's room. Trans women are women and thus use the women's room. Why do you feign confusion?
Nothing is being imposed and certainly not upon you. On the contrary, these laws are impositions upon trans people. They are forcing trans people to use the wrong bathroom. They force trans men to use the women's bathroom.
This person is now forced to use the women's bathroom:
This 14-year-old is now forced to use the men's bathroom:
quote:
I keep thinking I'm missing something.
What's to miss? It's nothing but bigotry. Those who hate trans people make these laws. Having lost their fights over keeping gay people as second-class citizens (not that that fight is over), they have set their sights on trans people thinking they can use that as a wedge to maintain their hold on power.
You will note, for example, that the NC bill that enshrined bigotry against trans people into the law was done so that they could also pass laws that prevented localities from setting a higher minimum wage, stripped workers of the right to sue when they are discriminated against (and that is for all categories such as race, sex, and religion): "[No] person may bring any civil action based upon the public policy expressed herein."
If you are fired because of your religion, for example, you can still sue...in the federal courts which is more difficult. For example, federal suits must be filed within 180 days. The previous law in NC gave you three years.
It also prevents any municipality from passing laws that protect citizens on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.
The bigots in the legislature knew exactly what they were doing: They could screw over the populace using trans people as a cover.
quote:
Also, if people have already been using the sex-designated room of their preference without problems why do we need a law at all?
Precisely. What was the purpose of this law?
Because they could. Because they couldn't just accept that people who aren't like them are just as worthy of humanity and dignity as they are. They had to flex their muscles to show that they were still in control.
And in the process, they could screw over everybody else.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:47 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-29-2016 11:51 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 137 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-07-2016 2:46 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 12 of 166 (782873)
04-29-2016 10:53 PM


I had several discussions about this with some family members who are for these laws. The core of their argument and belief is that gay and transgendered people are pedophiles.
I no longer consider them family and will discourage any further contact. I only had anything to do with them because I did not want to hurt my parents and since I lost my parents in 2012 I no longer have any reason to have contact with these bigots.
I think the people who are enacting these laws are actually intentionally trying to legalize discrimination against people they hate.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 13 of 166 (782874)
04-29-2016 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rrhain
04-29-2016 8:20 PM


Transgender - the grey zone?
I'm not at all trying to be anti-trans, but isn't it inherent that the individuals at some point are kind of in physical gender limbo-land?
At what point does one who makes the female to man physical transition, make the transition from using the women's restroom to using the men's restroom?
Which restroom should the physically male but psychologically female individual use?
Moose

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 04-29-2016 11:56 PM Minnemooseus has replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 14 of 166 (782875)
04-29-2016 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Minnemooseus
04-29-2016 11:51 PM


Re: Transgender - the grey zone?
Which restroom should the physically male but psychologically female individual use?
Take that cute little 14-year old in Rrhain's message above. Do you think she doesn't know which bathroom is most appropriate for her?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-29-2016 11:51 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-30-2016 12:16 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 15 of 166 (782876)
04-30-2016 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by AZPaul3
04-29-2016 11:56 PM


Re: Transgender - the grey zone?
Take that cute little 14-year old in Rrhain's message above. Do you think she doesn't know which bathroom is most appropriate for her?
I consider her to be both physically and psychologically female. Not really part of my question.
What about when she was physically male but (I presume) psychologically female?
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Screwed up quote box and didn't preview.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 04-29-2016 11:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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