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Author Topic:   Question: Why did animals have to die in the great flood?
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 1 of 47 (786861)
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


If God had to wipe out humanity because of the stain of sin and start over with a more pure version through Noah's bloodline, my question is what was the corruption infecting humanity that made this cleansing necessary and why did it have to include the destruction of all animal life except 2 creatures of each type that God chose and guided to be saved on the Arc?
Is there any information regarding Gods reasoning in this area either in the bible or in any other holy writings by the Old Testament Patriarchs? In other words, does anybody grasp the full reasoning behind Gods plan for the great flood as it played out in the real world?

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 5:19 PM Archangel has replied
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 6:29 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 26 by Larni, posted 06-29-2016 5:15 AM Archangel has not replied
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 Message 38 by kbertsche, posted 06-29-2016 8:42 PM Archangel has replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 2 of 47 (786862)
06-28-2016 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


Has this forum died?
I posted this debate question early Sunday morning and here it is mid afternoon Tuesday
Yet no one has responded in any way to it. Nor have any moderators moved it to the appropriate thread. Is there nobody left to offer intelligent debate here?

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2389 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 3 of 47 (786864)
06-28-2016 3:29 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Question: Why did animals have to die in the great flood? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 4 of 47 (786867)
06-28-2016 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


Well it seems to me that an orthodox Christian answer to the question about the animals would be that they were simply collateral damage. Once God had decided to kill all the humans with a global flood, naturally the flood was going to kill all the animals too. "But," (you might ask) "what did they do to deserve it?" Nothing, of course, they were simply in the way. But it is clear from the Bible that animal rights is not at all one of God's concerns. From an OT perspective you might as well ask what the trees and the rocks did to deserve submersion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 5 of 47 (786871)
06-28-2016 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


Archangel writes:
other words, does anybody grasp the full reasoning behind Gods plan for the great flood as it played out in the real world?
I suspect several people sighed at this.
The problem is that all you've got is written in your book. That's all there is. There is NOTHING else. The rest has to be made up. That's why it's possible to make aything up you like.
The second sigh is because IT'S FICTION. Almost everybody here knows it's fiction so your question is exactly the same as asking why Ents aren't seen out and about more often. It gets tiresome and a bit embarassing having to point this out so regularly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Archangel, posted 06-28-2016 6:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


(1)
Message 6 of 47 (786873)
06-28-2016 6:02 PM


For the better part of my 41 years as a believer in Christ and a student of Gods Word I too accepted that the death of all animals in the Great Flood was just a matter of necessity.
But it always bothered me because I have seen in Gods character that He loves all creatures great and small. See Matthew 6:26 for example, Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
And consider Psalm 147:9 which says,
He gives to the beast its food, And to the young ravens which cry.
So there is much evidence that God loves and values the animal kingdom which some believe is formed and fashioned after the hosts of angels which inhabit Heaven. In other words, just imagine a Heaven full of intelligent and sentient angelic beings which resemble the animals we share this great earth with fulfilling the words of the great prayer which say’s On Earth as it is in Heaven.
So, why was the great flood necessary? What so infected the bloodline of humanity that God had to destroy all human life and start over again? I believe the answer though it be limited in the information it offers is found in the Book of Genesis;
The Nephilim (plural) are the offspring of the sons of God or "Fallen Angels and the daughters of men" in Genesis 6:4, or giants who inhabit Canaan in Numbers 13:33.
With this given as a justification for having to destroy humanity and start over with a pure uninfected bloodline which Noah and his family offered, in my studies I discovered the Ancient Book of Enoch, the 7th descendent from Adam and one who walked with Adam. He was the Father of Methuselah and was such a Holy Man that it is written that God took him or translated him alive to Heaven.
I’m going to copy and paste chapters 6 & 7 of the Book of Enoch which I believe answers this question regarding why the animals had to also die in the Great Flood of Noah. You see, just as Mans bloodline/genetic DNA was corrupted because Fallen Angels mixed with Human Women so did Fallen Angels also corrupt animals in order to create giants also so as not to deplete the animal kingdom due to the ravenous appetites of these Nephelim.
CHAPTER VI.
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjz, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered
p. 35
him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Smazz, their leader, Arkba, Rml, Kkabl, Tml, Rml, Dnl, zql, Barqjl, Asl, Armrs, Batrl, Annl, Zaql, Samspl, Satarl, Trl, Jmjl, Saril. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.
CHAPTER VII.
1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. "5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another’s flesh, and drink the blood." 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
It is verse 5 specifically that theologians believe implies that by sinning against Birds, Beasts, Reptiles and Fish that fallen angels corrupted their genetic code and caused them to also become giants rather than the way Yahweh created them originally. This is why the animal kingdom had to also be destroyed along with Man in the great Flood of Noah.
One more interesting point that can be gleaned from these two chapters is the origin of the knowledge man gained regarding herbal medicines from plants and all of the other knowledge gained from these demons from hell. They corrupted humanity by giving knowledge we had no right to at such an early stage of civilization.

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:31 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-28-2016 7:22 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2016 9:12 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 7 of 47 (786874)
06-28-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


Symbolism and Metaphor
While many of the Biblical inerrency crowd insist--despite evidence to the contrary--that a global flood actually occurred, I prefer to view the whole story metaphorically.
I do have a few problems with the overall symbolism and/or metaphorical lessons that the story teaches, however.
Lets examine them in the context of what the bible actually says...we can speculate later.
Initially, the animals were supposedly created and the creative act was deemed "good".
Gen 1:24-25 writes:
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. (NIV)
Humans were created and were given charge over the naming of these various animals.
Gen 2:19-20 writes:
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
Supposedly, after the so-called Fall Of Man, the ground became cursed.
Gen 3:17 writes:
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
Since the animals were formed from the ground, perhaps all of creation thus became cursed, though this makes no sense to me. Seems as if God could have planned things better so as not to curse every darn thing due to the free will of innocent humans. Again, the story plot line is better understood symbolically and metaphorically rather than straight-up literally.
Many folks believe that the God mentioned in the Bible changes as humans grow and evolve. I prefer,however, to see the Creator of all seen and unseen as unchanging and eternally wise and omniscient. Such a Creator would make no mistakes and would allow parables, metaphors and symbolism to be written so as to teach the people certain precepts and lessons from the stories. That being said, I often wonder why God would have to use a flood to correct curses inflicted through the unwise choices of fallible humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 8 of 47 (786875)
06-28-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
06-28-2016 5:19 PM


I sigh everytime I read a spiritually shallow post like this that reveals how utterly vacuous your world view is. It breaks my heart that seemingly intelligent people can be so spiritually barren that they are incapable of recognizing that we are also spiritual beings.
I can absolutely promise you and every other secular humanist that upon the very first second after you physically die you will immediately realize that you completely missed the boat in life where the truth of why you existed was concerned. And at that very same second you will understand that you spent a wasted life ignoring, mocking and blaspheming the living God who lovingly created you in His image.
My prayer for you is that you will humbly open your heart and ask God that if He is there to please reveal Himself to you and remain open and patient that He will. Ask in Jesus Holy name. Amen...

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 5:19 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:38 PM Archangel has replied
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-28-2016 8:10 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 9 of 47 (786876)
06-28-2016 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Archangel
06-28-2016 6:02 PM


Like I say, you have your book. That's all you have. Make of it what you will - that's what's been done for millennia.
You can't make sense of it unless you want to.
Quoting chunks of if gets you nowhere because others can quote different chunks. What do you want to believe?
Alternatively, you can look at what we actually KNOW.
What we know tells us that there's never been a global flood and that all animal and plant life was not destroyed 4,000 years ago. If the flood had happened it would be evident - obvious and unmissable in the geological and biological record. But it isn't.
Search all you like for answers in the Old Testament, but when is been proven to be fiction, you're not going to only find what you want to find. Just pick what you need.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Archangel, posted 06-28-2016 6:02 PM Archangel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 6:38 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 10 of 47 (786877)
06-28-2016 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:31 PM


Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Keep in mind, Tangle that this is a Bible Study and not a logical refutation of beliefs.
We know your position on the Bible as fiction, and you do have an otherwise logical argument. This topic, however, focuses on answering Archangels questions from the literature written about the beliefs and legends.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:41 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 11 of 47 (786878)
06-28-2016 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Archangel
06-28-2016 6:29 PM


Archangel writes:
I sigh everytime I read a spiritually shallow post like this that reveals how utterly vacuous your world view is. It breaks my heart that seemingly intelligent people can be so spiritually barren that they are incapable of recognizing that we are also spiritual beings.
Concentrate. We're talking about a global flood about 4,000 years ago. That's a matter of fact and evidence - there's absolutely nothing 'spiritual' about it.
Even if true it would have been an act of barbarism unsurpassed by anything in human imaginings
Spiritual? For fuck sake, engage brain.
My prayer for you is that you will humbly open your heart and ask God that if He is there to please reveal Himself to you and remain open and patient that He will. Ask in Jesus Holy name. Amen...
And in return, I hope you get your mind back soon.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Archangel, posted 06-28-2016 6:29 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 6:54 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 19 by Archangel, posted 06-28-2016 9:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 12 of 47 (786879)
06-28-2016 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
06-28-2016 6:38 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Phat writes:
We know your position on the Bible as fiction, and you do have an otherwise logical argument. This topic, however, focuses on answering Archangels questions from the literature written about the beliefs and legends.
And he got not a single answer - as he complained. I was pointing out why.
Over to the truly puddled.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 6:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 06-28-2016 6:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 13 of 47 (786880)
06-28-2016 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:41 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Assuming that Archangel believes God to be real...living and active not just through stories in a book but through everyday experience...it will be a challenge for any of us to explain why such parables,metaphors and symbolic passages make any sort of logical sense even given the concession that a Creator of all seen and unseen exists.
You of course explain the answer as the "fact" that there is no God. Given that this is unprovable either way, and given the fact that this is a Bible Study Forum---let us make a case pro or con based on the good old book.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:41 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 06-28-2016 9:25 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 14 of 47 (786881)
06-28-2016 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:38 PM


Judging The Judge
Even if true it would have been an act of barbarism unsurpassed by anything in human imaginings
Since when do created beings get to judge god? (I know jar will point out that the Bible proves that we do and should do such a thing, but he is hopelessly influence by Judaism.)
Gen 5:1 writes:
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Thus humans lived a life in the likeness of a Creator of all seen and unseen. We too attempt to create through invention, innovation, advances in scientific disciplines and study of the universe as well as our inner universe. We judge and determine whether or not God even exists. We define the rational course of worldview and thought for all of our species and offspring.
Many otherwise enlightened thinkers of the present era have many explanations of human evolution and behavior that leave the entire belief in God out of the equation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2016 6:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 47 (786882)
06-28-2016 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Archangel
06-28-2016 6:02 PM


But it always bothered me because I have seen in Gods character that He loves all creatures great and small. See Matthew 6:26 for example, Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
And consider Psalm 147:9 which says,
He gives to the beast its food, And to the young ravens which cry.
So there is much evidence that God loves and values the animal kingdom ...
Well, farmers feed their animals too, it's not necessarily out of love.
The furthest we could go on that basis is that God wants the "birds of the air" and "the young raven" and so forth to exist. This would also explain why he had specimens saved from the Flood.
Now there are verses in the Bible that tell people to be kind to animals, and make it out to be a virtue ( Proverbs 12:10, Exodus 23:5, Deuteronomy 25:4, Exodus 23:12-13) but then again there are verses in the Bible instructing us not to kill. It seems evident that God is not bound by the morality he enjoins on others.
---
A similar question could be asked about the Fall. Most creationists will tell you that there was no death (and hence no carnivory) before the Fall. The justice of punishing the animal kingdom for Adam's sin may seem questionable to us, and yet it is widely believed that this was the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Archangel, posted 06-28-2016 6:02 PM Archangel has not replied

  
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