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Author Topic:   Violence in the Bible and the Quran
Stile
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Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 76 (845839)
12-21-2018 12:28 PM


Is violence attached to one religion more than another?

From my experience, no, not at all.
Perhaps at certain times in history, different religions held a stronger "rule with an iron fist" attitude.
And every religion, it seems, has it's hand in at least some violence in the past.

Here are two links, with their summary quoted for reference:

The Bible and Violence

quote:
The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain many passages outlining approaches to, and descriptions of, violent activities, centering on the ancient nation of Israel and their involvement with Gentile nations. They also provide civil guidelines on the subject of violent activity as it pertains to individuals within the nation, distinguishing individualistic from nationalistic actions.

These texts contain narratives, poetry, and instruction describing, commanding, or condemning violent actions by God, individuals, groups, and governments. These actions include war, human and animal sacrifice, murder, rape, stoning, sexism, slavery, criminal punishment, and violent language.[1]:Introduction The texts have a history of interpretation within the Abrahamic religions and Western culture that includes justification for acts of violence as well as structural violence, and have also been used in opposition to violence.[2]


Violence in the Quran

quote:
The Quran, the holy book of Islam, contains verses believed by Muslims to be revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad at different times and under different circumstances – some exhorting violence against enemies and others urging restraint and conciliation. Because some verses abrogate others, and because some are thought to be general commands while other refer to specific enemies, how the verses are understood and how they relate to each other "has been a central issue in Islamic thinking on war" according to scholars such as Charles Matthews.[1]

While numerous scholars explain Quranic phrases on violence to be only in the context of a defensive response to oppression;[2][3][4][5][6][7] violent groups have interpreted verses to endorse their violent actions[8] and made the Quran's teachings on violence and war a topic of vigorous debate.[9][10]


I do not have a lot of knowledge in the actual research into either book.

However, after taking a look at both this is what forms as my high level review:


  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Really, I don't see a difference.

If you think a large, obvious difference exists... please use this area to describe it so that others may judge as well.
It would be extremely convincing if you could show how any of points 1, 2 or 3 above are not factual descriptions of reality.



Probably a best fit in the Comparative Religions forum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 1:00 PM Stile has responded
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 12-21-2018 7:10 PM Stile has responded

    
AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 76 (845841)
12-21-2018 12:30 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Violence in the Bible and the Quran thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Faith
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Posts: 32918
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 76 (845847)
12-21-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-21-2018 12:28 PM


The Bible REPORTS on violent doings in the Old Testament, it does NOT prescribe such things to its readers, entirely the opposite. I'm not sure which of Islam's books tell the reader to kill Jews but it is direct to the reader and that is why they go around blowing people up and shooting into crowds. The Ayatollah Khomeini once chided Muslims for being reluctant to carry out Allah's instructions to kill infidels.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 12:28 PM Stile has responded

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ringo
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Posts: 17289
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 4 of 76 (845849)
12-21-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-21-2018 1:00 PM


Faith writes:

I'm not sure which of Islam's books tell the reader to kill Jews....


Of course you're not sure - just like I'm not sure which planet is covered with strawberry jam. But we know it's true.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5 of 76 (845855)
12-21-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-21-2018 1:00 PM


Faith writes:

The Bible REPORTS on violent doings in the Old Testament, it does NOT prescribe such things to its readers, entirely the opposite. I'm not sure which of Islam's books tell the reader to kill Jews but it is direct to the reader and that is why they go around blowing people up and shooting into crowds. The Ayatollah Khomeini once chided Muslims for being reluctant to carry out Allah's instructions to kill infidels.

I'll take your word for it. But still - so what?
Why do you think such a minuscule, nit-picky, pin-point of a difference means anything to anyone?

The results speak for themselves and are still the same:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Your distinction only provides a point if it produces some sort of tangible result.

If religions following the Quran actually did have a majority that cause violence... then you'd have a point.
But they don't... so your point actually works to give more praise to Islam that takes the violence in their holy book and still gets the majority to denounce it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 1:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 1:14 PM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32918
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 76 (845856)
12-21-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
12-21-2018 1:10 PM


Christians have been the persecuted ones, first by the Caesars and then by the millions in the Middle Ages under the Roman Church, and except in strange misguided circumstances we do not persecute anyone. Roman Catholicism persecutes BECAUSE IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN. Islam persecutes because its books tell them to, asnd Mohammed went around killing people who would not convert.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 7 of 76 (845862)
12-21-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
12-21-2018 1:14 PM


Faith writes:

Christians have been the persecuted ones, first by the Caesars and then by the millions in the Middle Ages under the Roman Church, and except in strange misguided circumstances we do not persecute anyone.

Um... okay.
What does this have to do with anything?

I'm not talking about persecution. I'm talking about violence coming from a holy book and if any religion is "better" at dealing with it than any other.

Roman Catholicism persecutes BECAUSE IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN. Islam persecutes because its books tell them to, asnd Mohammed went around killing people who would not convert.

It doesn't really matter why persecution happens.
The point is that it happens, and others take steps to prevent it.

Some persecution happens due to violence in holy books.
Others who also use those holy book take steps to denounce such things.

And the results seem to be the same for both religions:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

Worrying over the minute details you keep providing is like a kid in school complaining they got the same punishment for throwing rocks at Suzy because someone told them to when the other kid throwing rocks at Suzy was the one with the idea!

It just doesn't make a difference to anyone who cares about not hurting others as much as possible.


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GDR
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Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 8 of 76 (845899)
12-21-2018 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-21-2018 12:28 PM


Stile writes:

If you think a large, obvious difference exists... please use this area to describe it so that others may judge as well.


First let me say that there are many Muslims who subscribe to the "restaint and conciliation" message in the Quran.
One difference that I did notice in comparing the Bible to the Quran is this. In the Bible there is a slow progressive movement away from the violent nature of God in the OT. Just compare the nature of God in the Torah, to His nature in Isaiah to what we see in Jesus.

In the quran it starts out with Mohammed preaching a conciliatory message in regards to how to interact with Christians and Jews. However, as He gains political power and was losing support from the Jews He preached a message that was not very conciliatory.

The point is that the Christian revelation in the Bible becomes more and more peaceful, where as in the Quran it is the other way around.

For both religions we have to choose which end of our Holy Books we want to go by to understand God's nature, and what that means to how we live our lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 12:28 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 76 (845902)
12-21-2018 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


For both religions we have to choose which end of our Holy Books we want to go by to understand God's nature, and what that means to how we live our lives.

Another indicator that both are political tomes written to serve purposes less than the divine.

How bout they throw out the actual text of both books and live by the better angels of secular humanist tolerance?

... never mind.


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Tangle
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Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 10 of 76 (845908)
12-22-2018 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


GDR writes:

For both religions we have to choose which end of our Holy Books we want to go by to understand God's nature, and what that means to how we live our lives.

Why?

Why can both these books be interpreted anywhichway? This is supposed to be the Word of God. He is supposed to have intervened in the world in order to give it a critically important message how can that message be interpreted in so many different ways? Not just minor ways but in ways that allow stuff like the Inquisition that lasted for centuries, the major schisms and multiple flavours of worship. In the Muslim world the split between Shia and Sunni is still the cause of wars an persecution.

Why is this god of yours so bad at telling us what he wants of us? Why is he so coy and inscutible? So far the way he's gone about guiding his flock has resulted in destructive divisions between peoples and has errected barriers preventing them ever being healed.

Why pop up regularly to primitive peoples with no method of fully recording and evidencing the contacts then never again when it might be more needed and can be tested and proven factual? Why not now?

Why use such an utterly bizarre method to tell us a very simple message. If there's a worse way of convincing anybody of a god than using a human that gets himself killed I can't think of one.

The obvious answer is because it's all just superstitious people making up stories.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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ringo
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Posts: 17289
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 11 of 76 (845912)
12-22-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


GDR writes:

In the Bible there is a slow progressive movement away from the violent nature of God in the OT.


In the Old Testament it's destruction by water. In the New Testament it 's destruction by fire. No difference.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1523
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 12 of 76 (845925)
12-22-2018 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-21-2018 1:00 PM


"You shall not allow a witch to live" means what to Christians?
And what exactly counts a "witchcraft" anyway?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Capt Stormfield
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Posts: 403
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 13 of 76 (845928)
12-22-2018 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
12-22-2018 11:31 AM



In the Old Testament it's destruction by water. In the New Testament it 's destruction by fire. No difference.

I would disagree. I think the concept of eternal punishment is far worse than a nice clean drowning.


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 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-22-2018 11:31 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
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Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 14 of 76 (846140)
12-30-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
12-21-2018 7:10 PM


GDR writes:

The point is that the Christian revelation in the Bible becomes more and more peaceful, where as in the Quran it is the other way around.

I don't agree or disagree with your point.
I simply find it irrelevant.
I see it as personal nitpicking in order to justify why you think one is "better" than the other in a sense that really doesn't matter.

I say that it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any of the significant points:

  1. Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
  2. Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
  3. Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

As long as that's true, I don't see any reason to care about anyone's personal interpretation that this or that religion "does it slightly better."

It's like agreeing that locking up guns makes them safer but you prefer a combination lock over a keyed lock. Sure there are slight advantages (and even disadvantages) to each lock type - but regardless, it doesn't make a significant difference to the over-arching idea. And "personal bias" seems like the most likely motivation for anyone to keep stressing one over the other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 12-21-2018 7:10 PM GDR has responded

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GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 76 (846197)
12-30-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Stile
12-30-2018 10:59 AM


GDR writes:

The point is that the Christian revelation in the Bible becomes more and more peaceful, where as in the Quran it is the other way around.

Stile writes:

don't agree or disagree with your point.
I simply find it irrelevant.
I see it as personal nitpicking in order to justify why you think one is "better" than the other in a sense that really doesn't matter.

I say that it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any of the significant points:

Both holy books contain descriptions of violence.
Both religions have minor groups that use the descriptions of violence in the books as support for their violent actions.
Both religions have majority groups that denounce the use of the books as support for any/all violent actions.

As long as that's true, I don't see any reason to care about anyone's personal interpretation that this or that religion "does it slightly better."

Well I get your point, but it does seem to matter. I believe in a progressive revelation of God in the world. In the Bible we see an understanding of God that moves from one that is often but not always legalistic and vengeful. As we move into Isaiah and other later OT books we move closer and closer to the God that we ultimately see as embodied by Jesus, where we see Him as loving and forgiving almost exclusively.

If however we have a holy book that goes in the direction of caring and then trending to vengeful it can be more of a problem, for those prone to accept the violent view. However I agree that a literal reading of any of these texts can be problematic.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 12-30-2018 10:59 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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