Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8942 total)
31 online now:
PaulK, Pressie (2 members, 29 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: John Sullivan
Upcoming Birthdays: Anish
Post Volume: Total: 863,366 Year: 18,402/19,786 Month: 822/1,705 Week: 74/518 Day: 0/74 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 1 of 919 (853709)
05-30-2019 2:38 PM


Since the right wingers here wish to deny the presence of substantial racism within modern conservatism - and since it is off-topic on the thread where the issue was raised - it seems worth creating a new thread for the issue.

I’ll begin with Laura Ingraham and her “demographic changes”. Ingraham is not explicit about the demographic changes she means - itself a red flag. Why not be clear about what you are objecting to ? But it isn’t hard to work out.

Ingraham’s presentation appeared on Fox News, undoubtedly a conservative source.

These demographic changes “which none of us ever voted for, and most of us don’t like” are strongly related to immigration. She claims that “In some parts of the country it does seem like the America we know and love doesn’t exist anymore,”

But what does she mean and what alternative was there to “foisting” these changes on the American people? Demographic changes are not generally under any string controls, being the outcome of many individual decisions.

Given the focus on illegal immigration and Trump’s wall - illustrated by video of people scaling walls or slipping under fences - it seems quite clear to me that she thinks that there are far too many Latinos in the country. And that is racism. And if she doesn’t mean that then why doesn’t she say what “massive demographic changes” she did mean ?

And I would like to see what she would have had the government do about it. The whole idea of controlling the numbers of any ethnic group seems to be racist in itself. Even racial quotas on immigration would be bad enough, and probably inadequate.

Washington Times


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 05-31-2019 1:40 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Taq, posted 05-31-2019 3:14 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:02 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 381 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-31-2019 12:57 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1920
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 919 (853711)
05-31-2019 3:13 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Conservative Racism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3 of 919 (853763)
05-31-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
05-30-2019 2:38 PM


In fairness I will look at Laura Ingraham’s defence. However, I cannot give her the benefit of the doubt on this. There is no doubt that she was intentionally vague and if she wasn’t willing to explicitly say what she meant then, there is no reason to think that she would admit to the truth.

She claims that she was talking about “a shared sense of keeping America safe and her citizens safe and prosperous”. However that is certainly not a demographic change, nor does it offer any illumination on the demographic changes she meant. The fact that she followed up with more scaremongering about illegal immigrants reinforces the idea that it was all about race after all.

Washington Times


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2019 2:38 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 4 of 919 (853771)
05-31-2019 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
05-30-2019 2:38 PM


PaulK writes:

These demographic changes “which none of us ever voted for, and most of us don’t like” are strongly related to immigration. She claims that “In some parts of the country it does seem like the America we know and love doesn’t exist anymore,”

Unless you are descended from one of the indigenous American peoples, this argument doesn't hold much weight. We are a nation of immigrants, including Ingraham. She might as well argue against Father Time because she didn't get to vote on the 1950's going away.

Edit, just for good measure:

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2019 2:38 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-06-2019 11:25 PM Taq has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 5 of 919 (853815)
06-01-2019 12:27 AM


Take away political preferences, and many (on both sides) are indeed racist.
Trump has, no doubt whatsoever, caused increasingly higher numbers of Democrats to see their own - previously held - views as racist, while they won't admit how much they held (or secretly hold) the views.

quote:

EDITOR'S NOTE – MAY 1, 2019

Editor’s Note: Immigration Has Upended Our Opinions

Conservative writer David Frum has stirred a hornet’s nest on the issue of immigration, and since that’s a topic that sharply divides Americans, I think it is worthwhile to dive in and provide local perspective.

Frum’s article in the April issue of The Atlantic – “How Much Immigration is Too Much?” – is not about The Wall. That’s because he rightly points out a barrier along the Mexican border will not change the essence of America’s immigration system. Almost all new immigrants arrive legally, or they come legally as tourists or students and then remain illegally, or they come to border crossings as asylum seekers. A wall stops none of that and it certainly has little direct effect on Hawaii’s immigrant situation.

....

Trump has skewed the traditional Democratic and Republican positions on immigration. Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were both big advocates of immigration. Back in 2015, when Trump was largely considered a joke candidate, Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders expressed what had once been a common Democratic concern with immigration: “What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. … I don’t believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country.”

https://www.hawaiibusiness.com/...-note-immigration-opinions


I am sorry to see that Frum seems to be anti-immigration. I always thought he was pro-immigration. I just discovered his (new) position as I read this article (I have yet to read his own, but will try, if the computer loads).

But, to the issue of "right" and "left".

Democrats seem to be moving away from their anti-immigration past, but I wonder just how much of the pro-immigration momentum will continue when a few things chance. The first question is whether Democrats will feel so strongly about immigrant's suffering when Trump is no longer around to remind them of it (due to his mouth and style, which encourages media coverage of previously obscure border patrol/detention issues). The second issue has to do with the concern for migrant rights when the unemployment is higher than the current situation of a business cycle peak.

I hope that the always-increasing percentage of minorities in the total Democratic membership might somehow lock in a pro-immigration Democratic party ("Democrat" registered minorities tend to be made up of the more pro-immigration members of the communities) , but that might not make the issue so simple if the overall country (both whites and minorities) feels strongly hurt by immigrants.

Trump has made things simple (on immigration)

G. W. Bush made things simple (on war).

The big question is what Democrats do after the "simple" ones leave.

Will they do a 180?


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 919 (854074)
06-04-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
05-30-2019 2:38 PM


So now opposing open borders is racist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2019 2:38 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by JonF, posted 06-04-2019 4:15 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 4:25 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 06-04-2019 4:29 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5517
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 7 of 919 (854078)
06-04-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:02 PM


Since nobody is proposing open borders, opposing open borders is pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:02 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:20 PM JonF has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 919 (854079)
06-04-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
06-01-2019 12:27 AM


Re: Take away political preferences, and many (on both sides) are indeed racist.
There's a difference between racism and immigration barriers.

There are plenty of open borders types in rich liberal enclaves who favor restrictive zoning to keep people of color out of their neighborhoods (except to clean their pools and diaper their babies!)

https://newrepublic.com/...ins-san-franciscos-housing-crisis


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-01-2019 12:27 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by JonF, posted 06-04-2019 4:24 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 16 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 5:01 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 919 (854081)
06-04-2019 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by JonF
06-04-2019 4:15 PM


The "sanctuary city" people sound quite borderless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by JonF, posted 06-04-2019 4:15 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 4:27 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 13 by JonF, posted 06-04-2019 4:29 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 5:02 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5517
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 10 of 919 (854082)
06-04-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:16 PM


Re: Take away political preferences, and many (on both sides) are indeed racist.
That sort of racism is illegal and should be quashed, if it is as your source claims. But that's not evidence that anyone wants open borders; quite the opposite.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:16 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 12:08 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 11 of 919 (854083)
06-04-2019 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:02 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

So now opposing open borders is racist?

Opposing legal immigration because they have the wrong skin color is the problem. Ingraham is complaining about a changing demographic, not illegal immigration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:02 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 12:07 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 12 of 919 (854084)
06-04-2019 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:20 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

The "sanctuary city" people sound quite borderless.

That's not it at all. They are prioritizing limited resources and and the safety of the local community.

If people are afraid of being arrested for illegal immigration then they won't come forward as witnesses to other crimes. Also, it would require major resources from very limited local law enforcement when there is already a well funded federal agency that is already tasked with arresting illegal immigrants.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:20 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:33 PM Taq has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5517
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 13 of 919 (854086)
06-04-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:20 PM


What makes you think that? Sanctuary cities are legal and (many think) moral. Maybe illegal immigrants are encouraged by their existence. I have not seen any evidence people in sanctuary cities want open borders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:20 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 14 of 919 (854087)
06-04-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:02 PM


quote:

So now opposing open borders is racist?

Who said anything about “open borders” ? What she is opposing is changes in the racial mix, reducing the proportion of Whites. And I am pretty sure that she would do so even if immigration was not a factor at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:02 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 12:10 PM PaulK has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 919 (854089)
06-04-2019 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
06-04-2019 4:27 PM


All of that is quite true. Nevertheless, they do seem a bit lax in their attitudes towards the lines on the map, no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 4:27 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Theodoric, posted 06-04-2019 5:04 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 20 by JonF, posted 06-04-2019 5:19 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 21 by Taq, posted 06-04-2019 5:20 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019