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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
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Message 1 of 384 (857058)
07-05-2019 8:43 AM


I'm beginning this thread to redirect a flood discussion that has broken out over at the A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs thread, which is about evolution. The first post over there to mention the flood was Message 644.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 2 of 384 (857068)
07-05-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
07-05-2019 8:43 AM


Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
The Biblical Flood stories are just myths and neither of the floods described in the Bible stories ever happened. In fact there is positive and absolute evidence that neither of the Biblical Floods happened since there are many cities and civilizations that existed continuously throughout the possible time periods when the stories would have taken place.

There has been continuous occupation at the current site of Damascus Syria, Jericho, Aleppo for at least 10,000 years.

The current location of Athens has been occupied for at least 7000 years.

The areas known as Plovdiv in Bulgaria, Faiyum in Egypt, Byblos & Sidon in Lebanon as well as many other major settlements have existed for well over 6000 years.

There is absolutely no evidence of any world wide flood. PERIOD!


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RAZD
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Message 3 of 384 (857069)
07-05-2019 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
07-05-2019 8:43 AM


Nope.
Did the Flood really happen?

There is no geological evidence of a single world wide flood occurring around the world at any one specific time. This was determined centuries ago by people looking for such evidence, including Leonardo da Vinci.

The evidence of the spacial/temporal matrix that ties all fossils to locations and times showing evolutionary paths of descent over time is also evidence against such a flood -- it is not disrupted by a single world wide event. The white cliffs of Dover are an example of this matrix showing evolution over time, rather than a jumble of flood debris.

The evidence of the age of the earth (Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1) shows by simple annual counting systems to determine age that the earth is older than any YEC model, without any disruption by a single world wide event.

The genetic evidence shows a lack of systematic bottleneck events across all species at any one time in the past. See No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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Percy
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Message 4 of 384 (857070)
07-05-2019 9:14 AM


Re: Flood Stuff
This is a reply to Message 702 from Faith over at the A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs thread.

Faith writes:

What on earth do you mean by rushing waters "wearing out" a river? None of the rivers that are now in the area of the Grand Canyon were there at the point when the Flood started draining.

The only thing that wasn't there 4500 years ago was the Flood.

"That's not what happens in a flood" is the usual utterly ridiculous attempt to turn this worldwide catastrophe into any ordinary flood.

Ah, yes, the magic Flood. "Hurry, hurry, hurry, step right up ladies and gents and see the most spectacular water the world has ever known. It sorts, it cavorts, it lays down, it rises up, it deposits, it erodes. You name it, it does it."

The only part of it that was like a usual flood would have been in the beginning and then it would have been like a million floods all over the planet causing mudslides and waterfalls. In THE Flood besides all that happening, the oceans rose up over the land and yes water does create layers.

There is no evidence of any world wide Flood 4500 years ago. The only sort of correct thing you said was about water creating layers. Deposition of sedimentary layers does occur on the floors of bodies of water.

And your assertion that time periods would do that is just some kind of wishful inability to think about it. That is about the most absurd thing claimed about the scenario of the fossil record, yet normally intelligent people just won't let themselves think about it.

You shouldn't be making comments about the thinking abilities of your fellow participants, or be saying anything about them at all.

There are very few places where lava intrudes into the layers and it's very clear that most of it happened after the sedimentary layers were already laid down.

Magma intrusions as well as lava and ash deposits are common in sedimentary layers. It is how the layers are often dated since sedimentary layers cannot be dated directly.

So you're getting your stuff from Talk Origins. I can go there myself you know. How about being original?

All the science sites say pretty much the same thing. Being original by making claims unsupported by the facts would be daft. The facts are the facts, and the conclusions from those facts are obvious to everyone but religious ostriches, heads buried in Bible instead of real knowledge.

Obviously you haven't given a moment's thought to anything I actually said, about how rivers would have formed AFTER the Flood had drained, and meanders as well, on the flat surfaces such as the Kaibab plateau, that had been scoured off by the retreating Flood. This scenario works very well and it's all my own, I don't go to creationist sites to get my stuff.

The physical impossibility of your Flood scenarios have been explained many times.

--Percy


    
Faith
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Message 5 of 384 (857071)
07-05-2019 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
07-05-2019 9:05 AM


Re: Nope.
There is no geological evidence of a single world wide flood occurring around the world at any one specific time. This was determined centuries ago by ****** looking for such evidence, including Leonardo da Vinci.

Could you please sketch out the arguments "centuries ago" that "determined" there was no worldwide Flood.


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RAZD
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Message 6 of 384 (857072)
07-05-2019 9:33 AM


By Faith from
A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs, Message 704: Re: Flood stuff
Oh I misread it, thanks. WORN OUT A RIVERBED.

OK, the answer to that is the river wore out the riverbed over the last 4300 years. And it's absurd to think I was saying the rushing water had anything at all to do with the current riverbed.

Except that the geological age of the Grand Canyon from beginning until formed is more than 4300 years.

quote:
Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems : http://www.wired.com/...y/dissection/2008/03/dissection_0307

quote:
It turns out that the time stamps were there all along. They were just hidden away inside the hundreds of caves inside the Grand Canyon's walls. Strange formations known as mammilary coatings -- named for their vague resemblance to breasts -- line some of the cave walls. Mammilary coatings form on the walls of caves that are submerged just below the water table. As the Colorado River sliced deeper down into the Colorado Plateau, the water table gradually dropped. Mammilary coatings marked the river's fall. And as mammilary coatings form, they also happen to trap a lot of uranium. By measuring their age, scientists can measure how long ago they were near the water table.

Three geologists from the University of New Mexico have explored caves along the Grand Canyon, ranging from the very bottom to the rim. In this week's issue of Science, they report that the highest caves have mammilary coatings dating back about 17 million years, and the lowest ones date to about 800,000 years. And all the caves between the top and bottom have the intermediate ages you'd expect. By measuring the distance from the rim to the caves, the geologists were then able to estimate how fast the Colorado River carved the canyon. The downstream end of the canyon formed first, and only later did the upstream end catch up. These new measurements show that even as the river sank down into the earth, the earth itself rose, lifted by hot rock welling up through the crust


Here is creationist Kent Hovind and his (bad) argument(b) for how the Grand Canyon was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze5A2pua1E4

The dating information above says two things that invalidate the creationist concept that the canyon was formed by flood waters in a few days or weeks as the water drained away, slicing into and through the ridge:

  1. The canyon formed from west to east, while the creationist model would form from east to west (eroding the top of the barrier to the drainage flow first), and
  2. The canyon took at least 16 million years to form according to radiometric dating (17x10^6 - 8x10^5).

The evidence that the canyon formed from west to east is independent of the validity of Uranium-Lead dating, it just depends on the measured levels of Uranium and Lead without any age calculation:

  • soluble Uranium is captured in the formation of the speleotherm\mammilaries,
  • Lead is not soluble in water and so would not be deposited in the speleotherm\mammilaries
  • Uranium turns into lead, not vice-versa
  • The speleotherm\mammilaries form after the caves have been formed as they are deposits on the cave walls
  • Higher ratios of Lead/Uranium therefore are due to greater age of the speleotherm\mammilaries, and thus so are the locations where they are found.

We can also discuss the validity of Uranium-Lead dating with reference to:
Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?

Enjoy

(a) - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/speleothem?s=ts

speleothem

any of the crystalline deposits that form in a solution cave after the creation of the cave itself. These deposits are generally composed of calcium carbonate dissolved from the surrounding limestone by groundwater. Carbon dioxide carried in the water is released as the water encounters the cave air; this reduces the water's capacity to hold calcite in solution and causes the calcite to be deposited. These deposits may accumulate to form stalactites, stalagmites, flowstone, helictites, cave pearls, and many other formations. Deposits formed along ceiling cracks may produce drip curtains or draperies that may then reach the floor to become walls. Speleothems may grow in pools to form the nodular encrustations of cave coral or the natural dams that continually elevate themselves through accretion of calcite. The pure white of the calcium carbonate is often tinted with hues of red, yellow, and gray and may even be translucent. The growth rate of speleothems is highly variable due to seasonal variations in the rate of flow, carbon dioxide content, and other factors. Caves owe most of their beauty and much of their interest to these secondary growths.

(b) - Note that I have shown in previous threads why Hovind's explanation is bogus and doesn't work by his own argument that water does not flow uphill -- where the Grand Canyon crosses the ridge is not the lowest point of the ridge, but up on a slope between two lower points, so if he was correct then the canyon would be in a different location.


For debunking creationist fantasies, including Hovind's, about the Grand Canyon see If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS?, specifically Message 3

17 million years minimum starting date less 0.8 million years is 16.2 million years to form.

Enjoy


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Faith
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Posts: 32133
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Message 7 of 384 (857075)
07-05-2019 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
07-05-2019 9:33 AM


Re: By Faith from
My scenario is different from Hovind's. But I would like to see the arguments supposedly used against the Flood idea you say established that there was no Flood a long time ago. I'm sure I've already addressed them at one time or another but I need to see them described.

Thanks.


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Sarah Bellum
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(5)
Message 8 of 384 (857078)
07-05-2019 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
07-05-2019 9:43 AM


Re: By Faith from
Oh, there were lots of floods, local floods, all over the world.

But global flooding (of such a magnitude that, for example, the Greenland ice sheet would have floated away) would have left all kinds of markers in the geological record: tree rings, layers of sediment, ice cores etc. that are simply not there.


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RAZD
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Message 9 of 384 (857081)
07-05-2019 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-05-2019 9:21 AM


Re: Nope.
There is no geological evidence of a single world wide flood occurring around the world at any one specific time. This was determined centuries ago by people looking for such evidence, including Leonardo da Vinci.

Could you please sketch out the arguments "centuries ago" that "determined" there was no worldwide Flood.

Message 7: My scenario is different from Hovind's. ...

And it fails for the same reason. See If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS?, specifically Message 3

...But I would like to see the arguments supposedly used against the Flood idea you say established that there was no Flood a long time ago. I'm sure I've already addressed them at one time or another but I need to see them described.

First, what Leonardo found:

quote:
Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519)

Leonardo knew well the rocks and fossils (mostly Cenozoic mollusks) found in his native north Italy. No doubt he had ample opportunity to observe them during his service as an engineer and artist at the court of Lodovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, from 1482 to 1499: Vasari wrote that "Leonardo was frequently occupied in the preparation of plans to remove mountains or to pierce them with tunnels from plain to plain." He made many observations on mountains and rivers, and he grasped the principle that rocks can be formed by deposition of sediments by water, while at the same time the rivers erode rocks and carry their sediments to the sea, in a continuous grand cycle. He wrote: "The stratified stones of the mountains are all layers of clay, deposited one above the other by the various floods of the rivers. . . In every concavity at the summit of the mountains we shall always find the divisions of strata in the rocks." Leonardo appear to have grasped the law of superposition, which would later be articulated fully by the Danish scientist Nicolaus Steno in 1669: in any sequence of sedimentary rocks, the oldest rocks are those at the base. He also appears to have noticed that distinct layers of rocks and fossils could be traced over long distances, and that these layers were formed at different times: ". . . the shells in Lombardy are at four levels, and thus it is everywhere, having been made at various times." Nearly three hundred years later, the rediscovery and elaboration of these principles would make possible modern stratigraphy and geological mapping.

... There was every sign that these shells had once been living organisms. What about the Great Flood mentioned in the Bible? Leonardo doubted the existence of a single worldwide flood, noting that there would have been no place for the water to go when it receded. He also noted that "if the shells had been carried by the muddy deluge they would have been mixed up, and separated from each other amidst the mud, and not in regular steps and layers -- as we see them now in our time." He noted that rain falling on mountains rushed downhill, not uphill, and suggested that any Great Flood would have carried fossils away from the land, not towards it. He described sessile fossils such as oysters and corals, and considered it impossible that one flood could have carried them 300 miles inland, or that they could have crawled 300 miles in the forty days and nights of the Biblical flood.


Pretty similar to modern geological arguments against the mythic flood happening.

quote:
Geologists History

James Hutton is often viewed as the first modern geologist.[1] In 1785 he presented a paper entitled Theory of the Earth to the Royal Society of Edinburgh. In his paper, he explained his theory that the Earth must be much older than had previously been supposed to allow enough time for mountains to be eroded and for sediments to form new rocks at the bottom of the sea, which in turn were raised up to become dry land. Hutton published a two-volume version of his ideas in 1795 (Vol. 1, Vol. 2). ...

Sir Charles Lyell first published his famous book, Principles of Geology,[6] in 1830. This book, which influenced the thought of Charles Darwin, successfully promoted the doctrine of uniformitarianism. This theory states that slow geological processes have occurred throughout the Earth's history and are still occurring today. ...


But no universal flood.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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Faith
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Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 10 of 384 (857083)
07-05-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
07-05-2019 10:31 AM


Re: Nope.
Thank you.

I ******* there was more than that. I've already ******* through all that.

But I don't want to be on this thread, I didn't even want to be in the Flood argument at all. I don't know if I'll come back to it later but right now I don't want to be here.

But thanks again.

Edited by Admin, : Rerender after fixing regular expression for one of Faith's disallowed words.


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RAZD
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Message 11 of 384 (857084)
07-05-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 10:03 AM


Then there is the matter of Index Fossils
Index fossils were first discovered by William Smith

quote:
William Smith, (born March 23, 1769, Churchill, Oxfordshire, Eng.—died Aug. 28, 1839, Northampton, Northamptonshire), English engineer and geologist who is best known for his development of the science of stratigraphy. Smith’s great geologic map of England and Wales (1815) set the style for modern geologic maps, and many of the colourful names he applied to the strata are still in use today.

During preliminary surveys for a proposed Somersetshire Coal Canal in 1793, Smith discovered that the strata outcropping in the northern part of the region dip regularly eastward, like so many “slices of bread and butter.” On a long trip in 1794 to examine canals and collieries, he had an opportunity to extend his observations. His suspicion that the strata of Somerset could be traced far northward across England was brilliantly confirmed as the familiar beds were encountered again and again during this journey. Excavation of the new canal began in 1795, and Smith, studying the fresh cuts, found that each stratum contained “fossils peculiar to itself.”


quote:
William Smith’s work with faunal sequence

As Cuvier’s theory of faunal succession was being considered, William Smith, a civil engineer from the south of England, was also coming to realize that certain fossils can be found consistently associated with certain strata. In the course of evaluating various natural rock outcroppings, quarries, canals, and mines during the early 1790s, Smith increasingly utilized the fossil content as well as the lithologic character of various rock strata to identify the successional position of different rocks, and he made use of this information to effect a correlation among various localities he had studied. The consistency of the relationships that Smith observed eventually led him to conclude that there is indeed faunal succession and that there appears to be a consistent progression of forms from more primitive to more advanced. As a result of this observation, Smith was able to begin what was to amount to a monumental effort at synthesizing all that was then known of the rock successions outcropping throughout parts of Great Britain. This effort culminated in the publication of his “Geologic Map of England, Wales and Part of Scotland” (1815), a rigorous treatment of diverse geologic information resulting from a thorough understanding of geologic principles, including those of original horizontality, superposition (lithologic, or rock, succession), and faunal succession. With this, it now became possible to assume within a reasonable degree of certainty that correlation could be made between and among widely separated areas. It also became apparent that many sites that had previously been classified according to the then-traditional views of Arduino, Füchsel, and Lehmann did not conform to the new successional concepts of Smith.

Early attempts at mapping and correlation

The seminal work of Smith at clarifying various relationships in the interpretation of rock successions and their correlations elsewhere resulted in an intensive look at what the rock record and, in particular, what the fossil record had to say about past events in the long history of the Earth. A testimony to Smith’s efforts in producing one of the first large-scale geologic maps of a region is its essential accuracy in portraying what is now known to be the geologic succession for the particular area of Britain covered.

The application of the ideas of Lyell, Smith, Hutton, and others led to the recognition of lithologic and paleontologic successions of similar character from widely scattered areas. It also gave rise to the realization that many of these similar sequences could be correlated.

The French biologist Jean-Baptiste de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck, in particular, was able to demonstrate the similarity of fauna from a number of Cuvier’s and Alexandre Brongniart’s collections of fossils from the Paris Basin with fossil fauna from the sub-Apennines of Italy and the London Basin. While based mainly on the collections of Cuvier and Brongniart, Lamarck’s observations provided much more insight into the real significance of using fossils strictly for correlation purposes. Lamarck disagreed with Cuvier’s interpretation of the meaning of faunal extinction and regeneration in stratigraphic successions. Not convinced that catastrophes caused massive and widespread disruption of the biota, Lamarck preferred to think of organisms and their distribution in time and space as responding to the distribution of favourable habitats. If confronted with the need to adapt to abrupt changes in local habitat—Cuvier’s catastrophes—faunas must be able to change in order to survive. If not, they became extinct. Lamarck’s approach, much like that of Hutton, stressed the continuity of processes and the continuum of the stratigraphic record. Moreover, his view that organisms respond to the conditions of their environment had important implications for the uniformitarian approach to interpreting Earth history.

Once it was recognized that many of the rocks of the Paris Basin, London Basin, and parts of the Apennines apparently belonged to the same sequence by virtue of the similarity of their fossil content, Arduino’s term Tertiary (proposed as part of his fourfold division of rock succession in the Tuscan Hills of Italy) began to be applied to all of these diverse locations. Further work by Lyell and Gérard-Paul Deshayes resulted in the term Tertiary being accepted as one of the fundamental divisions of geologic time.


Correlations of rock layers with index fossils showing different ages.

A list of some index fossils:

quote:
Index fossils (also known as guide fossils or indicator fossils) are fossils used to define and identify geologic periods (or faunal stages). Index fossils must have a short vertical range, wide geographic distribution and rapid evolutionary trends. Another term, Zone fossil is used when the fossil have all the characters stated above except wide geographical distribution, they are limited to a zone and can't be used for correlations of stratas. [1]

Other index fossils include foraminifera, diatoms and coccoliths (White Cliffs of Dover):

quote:
White Cliffs of Dover, Geology

About 70 million years ago Great Britain and much of Europe were submerged under a great sea. The sea bottom was covered with white mud formed from fragments of coccoliths, the skeletons of tiny algae that floated in the surface waters and sank to the bottom during the Cretaceous period and, together with the remains of bottom-living creatures, formed muddy sediments. It is thought that the sediments were deposited very slowly, probably half a millimetre a year, equivalent to about 180 coccoliths piled one on top of another. Up to 500 metres of sediments were deposited in some areas.[6] The weight of overlying sediments caused the deposits to become consolidated into chalk.[7]

The cliffs' chalk face shows horizontal bands of dark-coloured flint which is composed of the remains of sea sponges and siliceous planktonic micro-organisms that hardened into the microscopic quartz crystals. Quartz silica filled cavities left by dead marine creatures which are found as flint fossils, especially the internal moulds of Micraster echinoids. Several different ocean floor species such as brachiopods, bivalves, crinoids, and sponges can be found in the chalk deposits, as can sharks' teeth.[10]


The banding clearly shows deposition over time, one band at a time, demonstrating relative age/s. Not disturbed by flood turbulence. In addition the fossils show deposition over time (including the life-time of brachiopods, bivalves, crinoids, and sponges) where they lived out normal marine lifetimes, lifetimes much longer than the purported duration of the mythic flood.

The problem for floodites is that they should not be organized into time dependant layers, but jumbled, and they should not include fully grown sessil organisms. Why do they always test out to be one specific age for each different index fossil?

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(1)
Message 12 of 384 (857085)
07-05-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
07-05-2019 11:03 AM


Re: Nope.
Thank you.

I thought there was more than that. I've already thought through all that.

But I don't want to be on this thread, I didn't even want to be in the Flood argument at all. I don't know if I'll come back to it later but right now I don't want to be here.

But thanks again.

What you do when you have been shown to be wrong.

Enjoy


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Faith
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Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 13 of 384 (857087)
07-05-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
07-05-2019 11:08 AM


Re: Nope.
No, it's what I do when I'm worn out from trying to deal with it all and having a nervous breakdown at the same time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Sarah Bellum
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(1)
Message 14 of 384 (857088)
07-05-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
07-05-2019 11:07 AM


Re: Then there is the matter of Index Fossils
Is "Floodites" like "Luddites"?
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 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2019 11:07 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:42 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 57 by dwise1, posted 07-06-2019 11:03 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
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Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
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Message 15 of 384 (857090)
07-05-2019 11:40 AM


A flood that killed all animals and plants at the same time would leave the markers of a genetic bottleneck in the genomes of all modern species at exactly that date.

No such markers exist.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
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