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Author Topic:   White skin and blue eyes origin.
ski zawaski
Junior Member
Posts: 3
From: walhalla SC
Joined: 11-09-2019


Message 1 of 73 (866455)
11-11-2019 10:06 AM


I believe that white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair originated in Africa from dark skinned people interbreeding with albino people. I think the albino was regarded as a prize, maybe as a king queen or leader of a group. Their migration was mainly north to Scandinavia, staying together as a closed society with no more interbreeding with any dark skin people.
Iv'e read that scientists say white skin blue eyed people are a product of living in northern cold climates with very little sunlight causing less melatonin in the skin. If that's the case, what about Eskimos or Mongolian race? Why don't they have blonde hair and blue eyes?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-11-2019 10:20 AM ski zawaski has responded
 Message 5 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-11-2019 3:35 PM ski zawaski has not yet responded
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2019 4:37 PM ski zawaski has not yet responded
 Message 11 by caffeine, posted 11-12-2019 6:58 AM ski zawaski has not yet responded
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 73 (866456)
11-11-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ski zawaski
11-11-2019 10:06 AM


Greetings ski and welcome to EvC. Do you want this topic to be in a science forum, in which case you need to provide evidence for your belief?

Perhaps at least you can list the source of your assertion. Rewrite this and provide a source and i will promote you.

Also, out of curiosity, why are you interested in this topic? let's discuss.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ski zawaski, posted 11-11-2019 10:06 AM ski zawaski has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ski zawaski, posted 11-11-2019 2:09 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

ski zawaski
Junior Member
Posts: 3
From: walhalla SC
Joined: 11-09-2019


Message 3 of 73 (866457)
11-11-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
11-11-2019 10:20 AM


Thanks for a reply. I don't have any sources for my assertion. I just think it makes sense and hoped to get some feed back. I've always been interested in the "WHY" of everything. That's all I can tell you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-11-2019 10:20 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 73 (866459)
11-11-2019 3:18 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the White skin and blue eyes origin. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 5 of 73 (866460)
11-11-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ski zawaski
11-11-2019 10:06 AM


The Ski Is Blue
I note that you are a "thinker". I am assuming that you are of more of a science mind than of a "believing" mind. You likely follow logic where it takes you.
Ski writes:

I believe that white skin, blue eyes, and blonde hair originated in Africa from dark-skinned people interbreeding with albino people. I think the albino was regarded as a prize, maybe as a king queen or leader of a group. Their migration was mainly north to Scandinavia, staying together as a closed society with no more interbreeding with any dark skin people.

Interesting theory. What do our resident EvC "thinkers" think?

I have concluded that this is a scientific question. Welcome to EvC by the way.

Courtesy of member RAZD:

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ski zawaski, posted 11-11-2019 10:06 AM ski zawaski has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 73 (866463)
11-11-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
11-11-2019 3:35 PM


Re: The Ski Is Blue
I think it’s all fantasising. The author admits that he doesn’t have any evidence.

If the author was science-minded he’d investigate the evidence rather than making up a rather odd story (I still don’t quite understand why albinos are involved - it’s blue eyes, not red. Lots of white people can tan or freckle, and white hair is only common as a consequence of aging - it’s very rare otherwise).


This message is a reply to:
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jar
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From: Texas!!
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(1)
Message 7 of 73 (866464)
11-11-2019 4:11 PM


To answer the question the first step is to look at the genetic characteristics of albinism.

Then check the genetics of those folk who have white skin and blue eyes.

It really is that simple.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 8 of 73 (866465)
11-11-2019 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ski zawaski
11-11-2019 10:06 AM


Welcome to the fray ski zawaski, I see Phat has already given you my ten second tour of formatting posts.

I believe that white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair originated in Africa from dark skinned people interbreeding with albino people. ...

Albinos lack pigment in their eyes as well as skin and hair, making them pink or redish, not blue. Blond hair is also not white and not due to loss of pigment.

... I think the albino was regarded as a prize, maybe as a king queen or leader of a group. ...

The only instance I have heard of where albinos were revered was on Easter Island, where they were kept in caves and regarded as seers.

... Their migration was mainly north to Scandinavia, staying together as a closed society with no more interbreeding with any dark skin people.

Iv'e read that scientists say white skin blue eyed people are a product of living in northern cold climates with very little sunlight causing less melatonin in the skin. ...

White skin, blue eyes, blond hair, all appear to be separate mutations that occurred in European areas:

quote:
White Skin Developed in Europe Only As Recently as 8,000 Years Ago Say Anthropologists

The myriad of skin tones and eye colors that humans express around the world are interesting and wonderful in their variety. Research continues on how humans acquired the traits they now have and when, in order to complete the puzzle that is our ancient human history. Now, a recent analysis by anthropologists suggests that the light skin color and the tallness associated with European genetics are relatively recent traits to the continent.

An international team of researchers as headed by Harvard University’s Dr. Iain Mathieson put forth a study at the 84th annual meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists recently.

Based on 83 human samples from Holocene Europe as analyzed under the 1000 Genomes Project , it is now found that for the majority of the time that humans have lived in Europe, the people had dark skin, and the genes signifying light skin only appear within the past 8,000 years. This recent and relatively quick process of natural selection suggests to researchers that the traits which spread rapidly were advantageous within that environment, according to the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) .


quote:
Genetic analysis reveals blue eyes evolved before light skin.

Skeletal remains from a 7,000 year old Spaniard have been genetically sequenced and suggests that the evolutionary onset of light-colored eyes predates light skin. The results also gave clues to what his diet might have been like. The lead author on the paper was Iñigo Olalde of Barcelona’s Institut de Biologia Evolutiva and it was published in Nature.

The remains were discovered in northwestern Spain at the La Braña-Arintero site. The skeleton belonged to a man from the Mesolithic Period who has been dubbed La Braña 1. One of his teeth yielded enough DNA to complete a genetic analysis. The results gave important clues about the evolution of appearance and diet in the region.

Though the height and approximate age at time of death were not released, the researchers were able to determine that La Braña 1 did not look quite how they expected. His dark hair and dark skin were not unusual, but he likely had light eyes which was very unusual for this time period. The exact shade of his eyes could not be determined, but it was clear to the researchers that they were not brown. This could very well mean that light eyes made their evolutionary debut before light skin.


quote:
Blond hair originated during the last Ice Age, some 11,000 years ago

Blond hair is most commonly associated with the peoples of Northern Europe. However, blond hair can also be found in communities in Asia, Africa, and Oceania. This characteristic is rather confined to a select group of people who underwent the genetic mutation essential for these colors to appear.

Blond hair is most commonly associated with the peoples of Northern Europe. However, blond hair can also be found in communities in Asia, Africa, and Oceania. This characteristic is rather confined to a select group of people who underwent the genetic mutation essential for these colors to appear.

The origin of the gene giving rise to blond hair color has been traced back to the last Ice Age 11,000 years ago. The extensive study on the genetic mutation was carried out by researchers at three Japanese universities; the research concluded that the genetic mutation occurred around 9,000 BC, as a result of various environmental and evolutionary factors.


Things to think about.

... If that's the case, what about Eskimos or Mongolian race? Why don't they have blonde hair and blue eyes?

Because they didn't get the mutation. Having the environmental condition is no guarantee that a mutation will occur. They are random.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ski zawaski, posted 11-11-2019 10:06 AM ski zawaski has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 9 of 73 (866466)
11-11-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
11-11-2019 4:37 PM


Thread done. Time to close.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 73 (866479)
11-12-2019 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
11-11-2019 5:01 PM


Impatience Is Not A Virtue
It's a good thing you don't moderate at this place. You would make a horrible and biased moderator. Ski is a grizzled old atheist like you are, which you would discover had you the patience to stick around his topic long enough to listen.

Our apologies, Ski. This forum does have a heart, but we often fuss and feud like a huge dysfunctional family.

Feel free to ask me some hardline questions. I won't get mad at you like some *cough* members *cough* do. Be forewarned, however. I am one of those pesky believers, so I usually frequent the non-science side of the Forum.

Though they all insist on dragging their science and evidence over to the Faith & Belief side and attempting to dominate the issue. It never works, however, and allows for delightful if repetitive and longwinded discussions.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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caffeine
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Posts: 1730
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 11 of 73 (866480)
11-12-2019 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ski zawaski
11-11-2019 10:06 AM


'What about Eskimos' is a good question, and you're not the first to ask it. One important question to ask is why the lack of sunlight leads to lighter skin. It's not something that happens magically in response to sunlight. Rather, lighter-skinned people must have some advantage at higher latitudes which means that genes causing lighter skin are more likely to be passed on.

One of the best hypotheses as to what this advantage is relates to vitamin D. Most of our vitamin D is synthesised internally, but this process requires sunlight. We need to synthesise vitamin D because unlike, for example, vitamin C, it's not common in our diets.

Most of our diets, anyway. Eskimos have traditionally had rather different diets to most people, a diet rich in fish and fat, blubbery meats. Or, to put it another way, a diet rich in vitamin D.

In support of the idea that sunlight is the driving selective force behind skin tone, it's been noted that the correlation between skin colour and UV exposure is extremely strong. The main exceptions to this correlation are all populations that have migrated in historical times.

You ask as well about people of 'Mongolian race', but people in North East Asia do have light skin. What they don't typically have is blonde hair and blue eyes but, as Razd pointed out, these are caused by different mutations than light skin, and they are unlikely to be connected to sunlight. A mutation causing blonde hair arise entirely independently in tropical Melanesia, where you can find people with dark skin and blonde hair.


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 12 of 73 (866484)
11-12-2019 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Thugpreacha
11-12-2019 4:43 AM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
Ski is a grizzled old atheist like you are, which you would discover had you the patience to stick around his topic long enough to listen.

Whoa. Is there another thread with Ski's involvement I missed? Are there some hidden messages from Ski that are not open in this thread?
Unless I missed something I see only two messages from Ski on this forum. That data is a bit sparse to conclude either age or religious philosophy since he/she didn't broach the issues in the posts.

Is it your gut feel that leads you to this view?

Mine is different. To my mind, with only the two short messages available for analysis, Ski is someone with an idea he/she just pulled out his butt and, regardless of the copious amounts of data on the subject readily available, has decided to neglect the science to put this pet idea in this forum as viable. That is not an intellectually favorable position.

I note the lack of a religious explanation for this albino dilemma he is trying to present. That does not denote atheism but the lack of an overwhelming religious motivation. But I note the lack of logical scientific thinking even more, which to my mind, lends itself to childishness or lazyness.

He posits that there is this entire population, an entire tribe of albino africans, that migrated en masse to Scandinavia that is now the white race. Minimal research into albinism shows neither a coordinated tribal population nor their migration north is evidenced. In fact the actual evidence shows such a scenario to be unworthy of any consideration.

Had Ski been intellectually able, this conclusion is inescapable. And this tells me we are dealing with a child or an intellectually incapable/lazy adult, with no religious hints whatsoever except for the lack of an extreme.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-12-2019 4:43 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 73 (866485)
11-12-2019 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 7:57 AM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
I do my homework.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 14 of 73 (866487)
11-12-2019 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Thugpreacha
11-12-2019 8:12 AM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
Ok. So clue me in. What homework did I miss?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 15 of 73 (866490)
11-12-2019 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 8:19 AM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
Ok. So clue me in. What homework did I miss?

Ski Zawaski

Enjoy

Edited by Admin, : Rerender to the URL has an accurate title.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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