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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 127 (885156)
03-25-2021 1:25 PM


I have noticed that *we* are all over the map in regards to my ongoing assertions and discussions regarding my personal beliefs.

In this proposed topic, I want to gather all of the various discussions which seem to hijack nearly every topic and bring them all here.

(Yes Percy and Moose, it is my fault that so many other topics melted in to this ongoing discussion between myself and the peanut gallery.)

For the record, the peanut gallery includes most other active posters on EvC Forum and anyone is free to join this discussion, but my main antagonists are Jar, AZ Paul3, Ringo, Tangle, PaulK, dwise1,and Stile. (Whom I respect more than the others as he is nicer.)

Can we put this in The Great Debate Thread? And by the way, Percy...you and I never argue. Its ok to join the fray if you have any points which you feel that the others have not addressed.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added dwise1 to peanut gallery list


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM Phat has responded
 Message 21 by nwr, posted 03-26-2021 12:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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Message 2 of 127 (885158)
03-25-2021 3:13 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Belief Versus The Scientific Method thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33436
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3 of 127 (885160)
03-25-2021 6:02 PM


Some basics
It might be worthwhile covering some very basic terms that so often get misused.

Reports: Reports are simply recitations of the facts under consideration.

Inference: Inference are additional statements not directly found in the report.

Let's start with these two since they are almost always evident in EVERY post from Phat and yet almost never identified.

An example are the alleged alleged "Supernatural" events he and others claim to have experienced.

A report of such an event would be who was there, when it happened, what was heard or smelled or tasted or seen.

But any statement about supernatural or demonic or spiritual causes is not a report, it is an inference.

Now inferences can be very important and in science inference is a major tool. A geologist can look at the shape of a valley and infer that it was produced by a glacier or a river or geological slippage or faults. But those inferences then get tested to see if there is any validity.

But that step never happens with spiritual or supernatural or demonic events. In those events the inference is made and then simply adopted and included in the Report as though it were factual and not an unsupported inference.

So if we are going to talk about belief versus the Scientific Method it is important to also understand words and language and not call an inference a report.

Edited by jar, : applin spallin

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Website: My Website

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4 of 127 (885162)
03-25-2021 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-25-2021 1:25 PM


Belief vs the scientific method?

As in compare and contrast for efficacy?

Isn't that like comparing a Dick and Jane reader with the Feynman lectures?

The difference in efficacy has been established and recognized for quite some time, now. I'm afraid it's well past time to think anyone here could effectively challenge the conclusion already reached that science is the superior ontology.

So, what is the purpose of this thread?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 1:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 8:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 8:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-03-2021 3:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 5 of 127 (885163)
03-25-2021 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 8:37 PM


Forcing My Hand Towards Science
First off, I'm a bit mad at Percy for placing this in the Science Forums as it insists that your evidence-based approach win by default. There are some things, however, for which no objective evidence is possible. My plan is to bring all of our scattered arguments here and I would have attempted to explain my argument more fully but evidently since we are stuck in a Science Forum, my assertions, experiences, beliefs and interpretations will get shot down without an argument.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 8:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 10 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 9:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 34 by Admin, posted 04-05-2021 9:31 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 6 of 127 (885164)
03-25-2021 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 8:37 PM


G#MF@&!!!
AZPaul3 writes:

The difference in efficacy has been established and recognized for quite some time, now. I'm afraid it's well past time to think anyone here could effectively challenge the conclusion already reached that science is the superior ontology.

Bullshit. Fuck off. You all should be glad that I even bother arguing with you. This place would be deader than a door nail if we never debated. And forgive my carnal nature in cussing you out, but it is far from conclusive that belief is dead. Either that or 50% of the population is delusional. And you lefties have no basis for insisting that it is not you as well.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 9:43 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33436
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 7 of 127 (885165)
03-25-2021 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
03-25-2021 8:52 PM


Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
The big possibility Phat is that you might learn how to think; and learn the tools that will allow you to understand how much you try to avoid thinking and reality.

Consider the post on the difference between reporting and inference.

Stop and look at you posts and try to identify how often you mistake reporting and inference.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 8:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 9:07 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 8 of 127 (885166)
03-25-2021 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
03-25-2021 8:59 PM


Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
As long as you show me politely where I am inferring rather than reporting, I will go along with this topic in a Science forum. When you start calling me stupid and bash the CCoI as pitiful and disgusting, you are going to get ignored by me and we wont have a discussion. I plan on fully explaining my thought process even though it may fall short of scientific critically thinking standards.

As you know, I have long objected to several of your ideas.
Among them:

  • That every belief needs to pass the evidence test before it is taken seriously.
  • That all beliefs should be taken at equal value.

    We know darn well that Loki or Coyote are not even in the same league with Jesus Christ and if we don't, I give up trying to convince you and will simply pray for you in the future.

    Now I will consider this argument if you argue it using scripture, but if you simply say that its a CCoI fantasy due to lack of evidence I will walk away. I have much more productive uses of my time than to get embarrassed in front of an impressionable group of lurkers who are already poisoned by your explanations regarding Theology and Belief.

    Edited by Phat, : added ranting


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 8:59 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 9:10 PM Phat has responded
     Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 10:02 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33436
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 9 of 127 (885167)
    03-25-2021 9:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    03-25-2021 9:07 PM


    Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
    Look at your accounts of your experience Phat.

    What parts are actual reporting and what parts are pure inference?


    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 9:07 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 10:58 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 6020
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 10 of 127 (885168)
    03-25-2021 9:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
    03-25-2021 8:52 PM


    Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
    I'm a bit mad at Percy for placing this in the Science Forums as it insists that your evidence-based approach win by default.

    I don't think it would make a difference what forum this was in. It wouldn't change my approach to your arguments and you shouldn't change yours because of it either.

    There are some things, however, for which no objective evidence is possible.

    Yes, there are, like garden fairies, YHWH, the luminiferous aether.

    ...but evidently since we are stuck in a Science Forum, my assertions, experiences, beliefs and interpretations will get shot down without an argument.

    It won't make any difference, Phat. Wrong is just wrong no matter what forum it's in.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 8:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 6020
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 11 of 127 (885169)
    03-25-2021 9:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
    03-25-2021 8:56 PM


    Re: G#MF@&!!!
    forgive my carnal nature in cussing you out...

    No need. We're good.

    ...but it is far from conclusive that belief is dead.

    So very true, which is a situation I hope changes this next century.

    Either that or 50% of the population is delusional. And you lefties have no basis for insisting that it is not you as well.

    You can say we are all delusional, Phat. Question is whether we live a good, humane, let's help people live better kinda delusion or the bad, inhumane, let's kill people kinda delusion. Your kind doesn't fair very well.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 8:56 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 11:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 6020
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 12 of 127 (885171)
    03-25-2021 10:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    03-25-2021 9:07 PM


    Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
    I plan on fully explaining my thought process even though it may fall short of scientific critically thinking standards.

    Yes, please do. Just understand that you are not doing so in a vacuum. You will be challenged, drawn out, drawn down, drawn and quartered, eviscerated, hanged and harrassed and verbally pilloried.

    Do you really want to do this? As you have observed, you've already lost.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 9:07 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-08-2021 9:00 AM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15641
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 13 of 127 (885172)
    03-25-2021 10:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by jar
    03-25-2021 9:10 PM


    Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
    jar writes:

    Look at your accounts of your experience Phat.
    What parts are actual reporting and what parts are pure inference?

    I turned to an old friend, in order to better understand reports and inferences.

    Language In Thought & Action writes:

    Most of our knowledge, acquired from parents, friends, schools,
    newspapers, books, conversation, speeches, and radio, is received
    verbally . All our knowledge of history, for example, comes to us
    only in words. The only proof we have that the Battle of Waterloo
    ever took place is that we have had reports to that effect. These
    reports are not given us bv people who saw it happen, but are based
    on other reports: reports of reports of reports, which go back ulti-
    mately to the first-hand reports given by people who did see it hap-
    pening. It is through reports, then, and through reports of reports,
    that we receive most knowledge: about government, about what is
    happening in China, about what picture is showing at the down-
    town theater — in fact, about anything which we do not know
    through direct experience.

    Critics could thus argue that the only knowledge that humans could ever have about Jesus Christ stem from first hand reports passed down through the centuries. Tangle likes to remind me that the only place the character could exist would be in reports and legends.

    Let us call this world that comes to us through words the verbal
    world, as opposed to the world we know or are capable of knowing
    through our own experience, which we shall call the extensional
    world .
    I will say that though much of my initial understanding of Christianity was entirely through reports, (books I had read, people I had listened to) my passion began when I was Born Again.
    LIT&A writes:

    The human being, like any other creature, begins
    to make his acquaintance with the extensional world from infancy.
    Unlike other creatures, however, he begins to receive, as soon as he
    can learn to understand, reports, reports of reports, reports of reports
    of reports. In addition he receives inferences made from reports,
    inferences made from other inferences, and so on.

    Thus Hayakawa describes the charge made by Tangle and others that Christianity is entirely cultural and is based on reports and inferences. I argue that my passion began through extensional experience.

    Reports are verifiable. We may not always be able to verify them
    ourselves, since we cannot track down the evidence for every piece
    of history we know...But if we
    are roughly agreed on the names of things, on what constitutes a
    “foot,” “yard,” “bushel,” and so on, and on how to measure time,
    there is relatively little danger of our misunderstanding each other.
    Even in a world such as we have today, in which everybody seems
    to be quarreling with everybody else, we still to a surprising degree
    trust each other's reports . We ask directions of total strangers when
    we are traveling. We follow directions on road signs without being
    suspicious of the people who put them up. We read books of infor-
    mation about science, mathematics, automotive engineering, travel,
    geography, the history of costume, and other such factual matters,
    and we usually assume that the author is doing his best to tell us as
    truly as he can what he knows.(...)We still have an enormous amount of re-
    liable information available and that deliberate misinformation, ex-
    cept in warfare, still is more the exception than the rule. The desire
    for self-preservation that compelled men to evolve means for the
    exchange of information also compels them to regard the giving
    of false information as profoundly reprehensible. .
    Now to be fair, many of you regard scripture as an entirely human created story. Thus I can give you information which lines up with scripture and you are still more likely to turn to science to verify the information or to place it in the context of critical thought. Granted, hayakawa states:
    ...At its highest development, the language of reports is the language of science. By “highest development” we mean greatest general usefulness.

    But how, it may be asked, can there be agreement about even this much among people who are at each other’s throats about practically everything else:
    political philosophies, ethical ideas, religious beliefs, and the survival of my
    business versus the survival of yours? The answer is that circumstances compel men to agree, whether they wish to or not. If, for
    example, there were a dozen different religious sects in the United
    States, each insisting on its own way of naming the time of the day
    and the days of the year, the mere necessity of having a dozen dif-
    ferent calendars, a dozen different kinds of watches, and a dozen
    sets of schedules for business hours, trains, and radio programs, to
    say nothing of the effort that would be required for translating terms
    from one nomenclature to another, would make life as we know it
    impossible.
    Which is a good argument to stick with Christianity and quit trying to introduce every god created!

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 9:10 PM jar has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by anglagard, posted 03-26-2021 1:17 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15641
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 14 of 127 (885173)
    03-25-2021 11:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
    03-25-2021 9:43 PM


    Re: G#MF@&!!!
    Your kind doesn't fair very well.
    Since when did "my kind" advocate killing anything other than demons?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 12:52 AM Phat has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 6020
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 15 of 127 (885175)
    03-26-2021 12:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
    03-25-2021 11:13 PM


    Re: G#MF@&!!!
    Since Genesis 7:21

    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 03-25-2021 11:13 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Phat, posted 03-26-2021 3:00 AM AZPaul3 has responded

      
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