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Author Topic:   2 Bit Cons. The Apologetics Behind The Finances
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1 of 5 (886569)
05-25-2021 2:16 AM


Philosophical Side of the Coin
This is a sister topic coming off of the Bit Coin/Gold/Digitized Money Topic.

I noticed early on that I waas conflating the strict science of the financial system (and argued wizardry and manipulation) with my own emotional hangups regarding noney,political philosophies behind the use of money(such as Democrats "rising tide lifts all boats" vs Republican "trickle down economics" and the growing reality that the world is becoming globalized financially as well as in a war ideologically.

The perfect storm is brewing. Everyone do me a favor and discuss the philosophical and moral issues in this topic while we can leave the cold hard facts of the financial wizardry, political actions regarding money, and the inevitable political dramas behind the Bill Getting Paid in the other topic here----->

Allow me to transfer the Philosophical and moral parts of the topic here, to get this one rolling.

nwr writes:

It is hard to predict inflation. I have been concerned about it since Trump tried to juice the economy with his 2017 tax cut. But that didn't have the anticipated effect. Most of the extra money, instead of causing inflation, went to pad bank accounts of the already rich. But that might set the stage for future inflation.

On the other hand, the pandemic has cooled things of somewhat. And Biden's proposed tax increased might further dampen inflationary trends. So, as already said, it is hard to predict.
(...)While we are about it, I'll comment on libertarianism. Typical libertarians think that the money they have is theirs, and they shouldn't pay taxes on it. But the money is just paper. It gets it value from the good will of the American people. If the libertarians screw too much with the average American, they might lose that good will backing. And where will they be then?
Money only has value as part of a community. And libertarians typically want to shun responsibilities to the community that they want to rip off.

Oh, and by the way Phat, you seem to have some of those libertarian tendencies.

As I search for my soul and my true beliefs, I realize that what you say is true. I wanted to start this sister thread on the morality, the global split between conservative populists(arguably neo-nazis) and the liberally minded agenda (whats mine is ours and whats yours is also ours)
and how the ideological aspects of global power are seen differently by each respective ideology.
From the time I get up until the time im off work, I cannot avoid thinking about money. Its not so much that I love it. I don't. I try my best to love and trust God. (Though I will admit that I expect Him to take care of me and I sense that this world is not only *not* fair, but that my critics might be right and that we *do* have to fully take care of ourselves. And this not only scares me but upsets me greatly. I have entitlement issues from long ago in my dysfunctional childhood, and am thus sensitive when I see others benefiting and seemingly leaving this old man alone and forgotten.
nwr writes:

Typical libertarians think that the money they have is theirs, and they shouldn't pay taxes on it. But the money is just paper. It gets it value from the good will of the American people.

I feel that taxes are fair if they are reasonable and if the majority of the "value units" that I work for belong to me. The apologists may have well warped my mind with their tales of how a One World Government headed by an evil figure who appears good to many will basically totally control the global money. In this scenario, nobody can buy anything nor sell anything independent of this devious system.
To me that is grossly outrageous and unfair. What gets me is that in many of the pro liberal common good for all people arguments, the idea of a government using and controlling the money seems preferable to a bunch of authoritarian pirates and robber barons stealing it all from the masses.
nwr writes:

Money only has value as part of a community. And libertarians typically want to shun responsibilities to the community that they want to rip off.

I wouldn't say that I wanted to rip off anyone individually. Collectively, I will resist a government who controls my contributions and manages individual values for the good of all.
nwr writes:

You are fooling yourself. Yes, you do love money. That's why you spend so much time thinking about it. (...)But the apologists use it as a threat to control. And they seem to be successful at that (at controlling you).

I realize how much of a role money has played in my psycho-social development (or handicaps) and my world view. I will admit to being obsessed with money only in that it is a quantifiable way of seeming to ease my pain.

Loving money is as silly as loving gun and pen collections. Upon reflection, my brain is really screwed up at times. The whole reason that I started this topic was to express my beliefs and views on the future of the people and the tough times which inevitably come. To be honest, I hold out a hope that I will be smart enough to escape the crash and the paying of the ominous bill due. I have a lot of pet up emotions regarding fairness, entitlement, and those who would seek to destabilize the system I grew up in for some social justice cause at equality and redistribution of wealth. For some reason I like to argue. To pick fights (verbally) as it partially satisfies my own need for purpose, honor, and duty in life. I'm a 2 bit hack with a sack of unearned privileges who does not want that taken from me. And yet my inner Christ tells me I must let go.

ringo,referring to my indoctrination through apologetic claims of a one world government writes:

In reality, it's going in the opposite direction. The Soviet Union fragmented. Yugoslavia fragmented. Even little Czechoslovakia fragmented. The Age of Empires is over.

Though my inner jury is still out regarding the trustworthiness of apologetic claims regarding a Global Government (a great fear of theirs) and the claim that it will be a bad thing, I continue to read a lot and watch a lot of vdeos esposing the end times point of view. Until I am convinced otherwise, I will continue to argue that basic position. Though to be fair, I *do* remember some things anglagard told me.
When my wife died in 2012 in our bedroom, the first thing I got to deal with were the police, who all but accused me of murder. After they left, then I got to call all the friends and relatives, starting with the daughter. This was also quite unpleasant.
So, I reread in order:

  • The Tao (short two hour read)
  • The Gospels (all four, takes days)
  • The Bhagavad Gita (one day, if dedicated)
    That helped more than expected. Do you see the difference in our subsequent behaviors?[/qs] Yes. You also stated this to me elsewhere:
    anglagard writes:

    My advice is for you to deal with any cognitive management issues you may have prior to posting any material related to Christianity to jar, Ringo, NWR, and I without having read the entire Bible, as is obvious we have done.

    One thing I note, however, is that all of you have something in common. You look at Jesus as simply a character in a book and a philosophy rather than a leader, Savior, and judge. You connect authoritarianism with Christianity (and by extension, *our* made-up Christ) and all tend towards a liberal humanistic and progressive Christianity.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by PaulK, posted 05-25-2021 2:23 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 05-25-2021 3:20 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 4 by ringo, posted 05-25-2021 2:41 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 5 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-25-2021 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 16979
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 2 of 5 (886570)
    05-25-2021 2:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    05-25-2021 2:16 AM


    Re: Philosophical Side of the Coin
    quote:
    I wanted to start this sister thread on the morality, the global split between conservative populists(arguably neo-nazis) and the liberally minded agenda (whats mine is ours and whats yours is also ours)

    So what you’re telling me here is that you really want to be on the side of those you consider “arguably neo-nazis”.

    If that’s what you feel please don’t try to justify it with fantasies about the “liberally minded agenda”. Just be honest.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-25-2021 2:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 8202
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 3 of 5 (886572)
    05-25-2021 3:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    05-25-2021 2:16 AM


    Re: Philosophical Side of the Coin
    Phat writes:

    The perfect storm is brewing.

    Doom, doom, we're all doomed.

    Or not.

    Your belief system promotes apocalypse like dictators promote enemies all around. Keeps you all terrified. Very helpful.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-25-2021 2:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19233
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 4 of 5 (886579)
    05-25-2021 2:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    05-25-2021 2:16 AM


    Re: Philosophical Side of the Coin
    Phat writes:

    Though my inner jury is still out regarding the trustworthiness of apologetic claims regarding a Global Government (a great fear of theirs) and the claim that it will be a bad thing, I continue to read a lot and watch a lot of vdeos esposing the end times point of view.


    And I pointed out that that point of view is factually, historically wrong.

    Edited by ringo, : Spellvin.


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-25-2021 2:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    AnswersInGenitals
    Member
    Posts: 628
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 4.3


    Message 5 of 5 (886580)
    05-25-2021 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    05-25-2021 2:16 AM


    Re: Philosophical Side of the Coin
    Of course you don’t love money - nobody does. Money, whether in the form of cash, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, funds, etc. is just a proxy. But real us legal tender money is significantly different than, say, Monopoly game money, which is also just a proxy. Monopoly money is a proxy for little cardboard cards for property sites and little wooden houses and hotels, all of which generate more Monopoly money and can lead to the satisfaction of winning the game or the disappointment of loosing the game.

    “Real’ money is a proxy for several things: First and foremost, it is a proxy for survival since it can be traded for food, clothing, housing, medical treatment, and other stuff necessary for you and your loved ones to survive. Second, it is proxy for enjoyment since it can be exchanged for many of those things that bring pleasure to your life. Make a list of several of the things that you enjoy and bring you pleasure and which you would regret not having if they were not available. For each of those items, make another list of those people whose labor is required to make those activities possible. Enjoy golf? Who made the clubs, bag, tees, golf shoes? Who built and maintains the courses? Enjoy hiking in national parks? A lot of labor from a lot of people is required to make that possible. Enjoy (or are compelled) posting on EvC - think of the thousands of people whose labor makes that possible. Third, and also very important, it is proxy for comfort - knowing that you have the resources to deal with problems, minuscule to life threatening, that occur. I am guessing from your posts that this is a major concern of yours. What if the police had accused you of killing your wife? Do you have the financial resources for a good lawyer and all the expenses he would rack up to properly defend you? Justice is one of the most expensive commodities in our society.

    An old saying (well, about 30 seconds old): The man who can live within his means is wealth, he who lives beyond his means lives in poverty.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 05-25-2021 2:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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