Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,576 Year: 4,833/9,624 Month: 181/427 Week: 94/85 Day: 1/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How certain is materialism/physicalism as a description of ultimate reality?
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1 of 143 (917699)
04-13-2024 9:11 PM


There are probably about 100 different philosophy positions that touch on what science would say about our physical world.
Specifically, the metaphysical world.
Neuroscience is a pretty materialistic profession. It commonly will show that our memories are made up of biological matter. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hammer off have attempted to find a non materialistic interpretation of our brain and consciousness, but an underground (literally subterranean) experiment, in Italy, did not back up the physical description of the theory.
LSD experiments are ongoing, and some physicists are always claiming to have made an LSD breakthrough, that challenges materialism.
Generally, just about nothing has truly challenged materialism, successfully.
UFOs - to the extent there has been "observations" by us, of them - seem to offer potential evidence that our physical laws need a better understanding, and some interpretations of UFOs involved interdimensional interpretations.
(John Brennan or James Clapper said UFOs seem to be interdimensional)
Materialism is the most relevant philosophy to a spiritual species, which humans seem to be.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 9:46 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 04-14-2024 3:32 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 04-15-2024 11:01 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 04-16-2024 6:23 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2 of 143 (917700)
04-14-2024 6:39 AM


Thread Moved from Coffee House Forum
Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3 of 143 (917702)
04-14-2024 6:40 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 4 of 143 (917716)
04-14-2024 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-13-2024 9:11 PM


Define metaphysical world.
How are LSD experiments relevant?
Define UFOs. Source for Brennan, Clapper assertions? If true, why would that be relevant?
Define reality.
Not sure what the actual topic is here. Once you answer my questions maybe it will make sense.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-13-2024 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-14-2024 9:48 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 12:17 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 5 of 143 (917717)
04-14-2024 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
04-14-2024 9:46 AM


Good Luck!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 9:46 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2024 3:30 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 143 (917722)
04-14-2024 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
04-14-2024 9:46 AM


Why don't you reword the topic? Then respond to your ahem perfect rording.
Metaphysical is a hypothetical physical concept, as we all know.
Or should already know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 9:46 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 3:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 04-14-2024 3:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 23 by Taq, posted 04-15-2024 11:16 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 7 of 143 (917727)
04-14-2024 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 12:17 PM


Re: Why don't you reword the topic? Then respond to your ahem perfect rording.
Not what I asked.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 12:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:21 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 143 (917729)
04-14-2024 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
04-14-2024 3:17 PM


Re: Why don't you reword the topic? Then respond to your ahem perfect rording.
Still waiting for the ahem perfect rewording.
Don't cheat us all out of the perfect rewording.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 3:17 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 04-14-2024 3:23 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 9 of 143 (917730)
04-14-2024 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 3:21 PM


Re: Why don't you reword the topic? Then respond to your ahem perfect rording.
So no explanations? Cool. Have fun.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:21 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 10 of 143 (917733)
04-14-2024 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 12:17 PM


Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
LNA writes:
Metaphysical is a hypothetical physical concept, as we all know.
Lets define three concepts which you have introduced.
Websters writes:
Materialism--
1: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter
scientific materialism
b
: a doctrine that the only or the highest values or objectives lie in material well-being and the furtherance of material progress
c
: a doctrine that economic or social change is materially caused
So let's look up physicalism.
Websters writes:
: a thesis that the descriptive terms of scientific language are reducible to terms which refer to spatiotemporal things or events or to their properties
Sounds over my head! Let's stick with your term materialism for now.
On to Metaphysics
Webster writes:
a(1)
: a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology
metaphysics … analyzes the generic traits manifested by existences of any kind—
J. H. Randall
(2)
: ontology sense 2
b
: abstract philosophical studies : a study of what is outside objective experience
steered philosophy away from metaphysics and toward the disciplines of natural science and linguistics—
Time
The dictionary reference goes on to say this:
Websters:
Just as physics deals with the laws that govern the physical world (such as those of gravity or the properties of waves), metaphysics describes what is beyond physics—the nature and origin of reality itself, the immortal soul, and the existence of a supreme being. Opinions about these metaphysical topics vary widely since what's being discussed can't be observed or measured or even truly known to exist. So most metaphysical questions are still as far from a final answer as they were when Plato and Aristotle were asking them.
The Websters reference provided one more notable insight:
quote:
The 1964 discovery of evidence supporting the big bang theory immediately elevated cosmology from metaphysics to hard science. — Richard Panek, Scientific American, 14 Nov. 2023
So which way do you want to go with this topic, LNA?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 12:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 143 (917735)
04-14-2024 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
04-13-2024 9:11 PM


Gathering Our Thoughts
LNA writes:
Materialism is the most relevant philosophy to a spiritual species, which humans seem to be.
So is this a philosophical discussion or a scientific one?
And what is it that you wish to discuss?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-13-2024 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 143 (917736)
04-14-2024 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
04-14-2024 3:25 PM


Re: Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
This would be a good place to discuss metaphysical-related events, like miracles and the supernatural.
Better than a historical Jesus thread, and there are a lot of those around here.
And they are full of posters who don't have a fucking clue.
I almost laughed (And as a character technique, I never physically laugh at other people's views) when I read the first few posts in a historical Jesus thread started by ICANT.
Look at the starting lineup...
Post 1 ICANT
POST 2 Percy (promoted thread)
Post 3 Tanpteryx
Post 4. Tangle
It was a parade of stupidity and I never saw such an ignoramus-display, even here, in my entire life.
I almost laughed, and post five (PaulK) was the first post that started to display some semblance of understanding about the confused b.s.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 04-14-2024 3:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 04-14-2024 3:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 04-14-2024 3:54 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22606
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 143 (917737)
04-14-2024 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 3:42 PM


Re: Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
LamarkNewAge in Message 12 writes:
This would be a good place to discuss metaphysical-related events, like miracles and the supernatural.
Why do you think miracles and the supernatural are part of metaphysics?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:42 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 04-14-2024 4:01 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 16 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 4:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 14 of 143 (917738)
04-14-2024 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by LamarkNewAge
04-14-2024 3:42 PM


EvC Primer on Peanut Gallery
You seem to want to engage in dialogue around here, and I have grown to accept you, hoping you will stay on topic.
LamarkNewAge in Message 20 writes:
Why does it need to be me? I will just answer that I don't know.
Keep in mind that you started this topic. You can run with and expand upon your ideas in Message 1
The peanut gallery is composed of the Boss, Percy as well as Tany and Xongsmith.(I mention them together as they usually both like the same posts) Tangle fits in there as does Taq, though Taq is distinct. PaulK is a veteran PG member who is not afraid to debate with the PG(peanut Gallery) crowd. dwise1 has a special disdain for Biblical Creationists and has debated them for many years. What I like about him is that he often goes out of his way to explain his reasoning in great detail, often embellishing personal anecdotes into his replies. Then we have Theodoric. He can come across as gruff and demanding, but he will challenge you to stay on topic and provide further explanations for your assertions in Message 1
To know EvC is to know the peanut gallery. There are a few other members that contribute less frequently but who read along with the conversations as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-14-2024 3:42 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 15 of 143 (917739)
04-14-2024 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
04-14-2024 3:49 PM


Re: Some Definitions Would Be Helpful
Hey Boss! Quick question before i am out the door...
Is philosophy a scientific topic?
As far as your question to LNA, I think he went with the quote I linked from Websters:
Websters:
Just as physics deals with the laws that govern the physical world (such as those of gravity or the properties of waves), metaphysics describes what is beyond physics—the nature and origin of reality itself, the immortal soul, and the existence of a supreme being. Opinions about these metaphysical topics vary widely since what's being discussed can't be observed or measured or even truly known to exist. So most metaphysical questions are still as far from a final answer as they were when Plato and Aristotle were asking them.
LNA is just trying to fit in to our endless banter. Perhaps we can help him frame this topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 04-14-2024 3:49 PM Percy has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024