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Author Topic:   Has anyone ever changed their minds?
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 29 (122542)
07-07-2004 12:19 AM


I'm new to the board and I was wondering -
Has anyone ever changed their mind?
Has someone appeared on the board as a creationist and after listening to the evidence said "I was wrong, there is something to this evolution thing?"
Ever happened the other way?
In both cases, what was the key incident?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-06-2004 06:03 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 12:50 AM CK has not replied
 Message 3 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-07-2004 2:28 AM CK has not replied
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 07-07-2004 3:43 AM CK has not replied
 Message 11 by Chiroptera, posted 07-07-2004 12:29 PM CK has not replied
 Message 27 by kc8rdb, posted 11-03-2004 11:51 AM CK has not replied
 Message 29 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-03-2004 2:53 PM CK has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 2 of 29 (122548)
07-07-2004 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
07-07-2004 12:19 AM


CK writes:
I'm new to the board and I was wondering -
Welcome
Has anyone ever changed their mind?
Yes.
Has someone appeared on the board as a creationist and after listening to the evidence said "I was wrong, there is something to this evolution thing?"
Talk to Mike the Wiz. I am not aware of any other evo convert.
Ever happened the other way?
No, as far as I know.
In both cases, what was the key incident?
You have to understand something. The majority of evos here are scientists, students who are going to become scientists (like myself), and people that have spent years studying the subject for the passion of it. In other words, evos here tend to be very well educated in many fields. It requires extensive studies and research for one to really understand the theory of evolution, and that is the case with the majority of evos here. In other words, evos tend to know what they are talking about. Very rarely do we find an evo that try to make bogus arguments.
On the other hand, if you are here long enough, you will notice that there are young creos that stop by and paste some things that they copied from creo websites (very unreliable). The majority of those posts are bogus arguments. Some of us try to be patient with these newbies but some of us will come down on them hard (I am one of them). After the first few posts, a young creo will (1) run away, (2) continue to make unsupported assertions until he is banned, or (3) shut the hell up and actually try to learn something. I must admit that I have only known one #3 case.
I am not criticizing the creo side on these boards. I am saying that there are a lot more inexperienced creos out there than evos, since most evos have gone through years of study and research before becoming a true evo (like myself). AND the inexperienced tend to be the ones that can change more easily than others.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 07-07-2004 12:19 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 07-07-2004 2:31 AM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 07-07-2004 1:31 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 29 (122565)
07-07-2004 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
07-07-2004 12:19 AM


My Story
I was a creationist when I first came across this forum and at first I thought it, and everyone else, were very anti-christian and athiestic. After listening to some of the arguements I started seeing that most of these people are really just trying to put the facts together for themselves, and others.
Question: How do we know which facts are right?
Although I can't prove that the people here are what they claim to be they at least have bright minds. And after enough conversations with enough young-earthers (like I used to be) and tearing them to shreds scientifically, mathematically, logically, and intellectually it seemed to me these guys were on to something.
Answer: Common sense!
History:
Being a young-earther I was never really content with evolution and every field of science associated with it. I ignorantly blocked out of my mind any sensical idea I heard or facts and figures that were shown to me. Conversely, I believed without question everything that was told to me by any and all creation scientists. I also was very reluctant to continue the 2nd year of my science degree - so I quit! However - fortunately for me - I have a really hard time lying to myself. To lie to yourself you really have to believe it; this is what I found myself doing.
After believing in God had ripped apart my nicely flowing academic career I started feeling like I was the only "true believer".
So, with the "benefit" of not having to go to school anymore I was free to research the "truth" about how and why we are here. I've been to practically all the "scientific" creation websites out there. I used to love reading Discover Magazine and Scientific American and let my mind wander, however, I also saw them as godless now too. For the period of about 6 months all I did was research and pray all alone in my one bedroom apartment. My girlfriend would visit of course but being a christian I felt so upset in relating to her the way I wanted....
By now I was on a definite path to annihilation, just - a different sort. I only began to wake up when I started conversing with other christians. They will believe anything! They frequently say "No one will ever change my mind!" concerning belief in God. How can someone say that? As well, they too were doing poorly or just not trying in school. If some were trying and doing well it was because they weren't as passionate about their faith - but it was still there.
It seems to me that most christians need to wake up from their blissfull ignorance. That is the only thing that made me realize I was following a non-existant God. When we have to do everything to justify an entity and that entity never comes along to prove us right, no matter what, something is wrong! Then, we justify it, "ooooh it wasn't God's will" or "Do not test God!" or "We don't know God's plan" --bullshit.
Evil, ladies and gentlemen, is common sense.
So, I slowly became evil. Good news, I still am today.

In the words of John Wheeler: "Physics gives rise to observer participancy; observer participancy gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 07-07-2004 12:19 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 3:46 AM Mission for Truth has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 29 (122566)
07-07-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by coffee_addict
07-07-2004 12:50 AM


In other words, evos tend to know what they are talking about. Very rarely do we find an evo that try to make bogus arguments.
that's me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 12:50 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 5 of 29 (122571)
07-07-2004 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
07-07-2004 12:19 AM


I would like to see some evolutionists change sides, if only for some time. I mean really genuinely believe in creation. I wonder what kind of creationists they would be, I mean would they ask such questions as what does a creation event look like? But I fear most evolutionists don't have the freedom to decide what to believe that way, being constricted by methodolologological naturalism much.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 07-07-2004 12:19 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Mammuthus, posted 07-07-2004 12:00 PM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 12 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2004 12:56 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 29 (122572)
07-07-2004 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mission for Truth
07-07-2004 2:28 AM


Re: My Story
I must admit that I have always thought of you as a christian spy sent here to pretend to be one of the evos just so creos could one day deal a crippling blow to the evo side. I guess it's the username that got me to think that... since fundies usually associate themselves as having the monopoly on truth. Anyway, sorry about that.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-07-2004 2:28 AM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mission for Truth, posted 07-07-2004 11:37 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 29 (122691)
07-07-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by coffee_addict
07-07-2004 3:46 AM


Re: My Story
Haha, yeah I know my name throws off a lot of people. I can *feel* it. But really, my mission is for truth. Truth, however, isn't what the fundies claim it to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 3:46 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 8 of 29 (122697)
07-07-2004 11:53 AM


The user named "True Creation" was a very bright high-school kid who once posted here a lot. He started out YEC and ended up an "evo", apparently while still an evangelical Christian. And I think he'll probably end up as a dang good geologist.

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 9 of 29 (122701)
07-07-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
07-07-2004 3:43 AM


I see the light in Nganjuk
I changed my mind..I used to think Syamsu was ignorant. Now I think he is very ignorant and annoying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 07-07-2004 3:43 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-07-2004 12:12 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 29 (122705)
07-07-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Mammuthus
07-07-2004 12:00 PM


Re: I see the light in Nganjuk
Mammuthus, I'd like to see you genuinely believe that Syamsu is wise and pleasant, in spite of evidence to the contrary. But apparently you don't have the freedom to decide what to believe that way.

"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Mammuthus, posted 07-07-2004 12:00 PM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Mammuthus, posted 07-07-2004 1:07 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 29 (122708)
07-07-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
07-07-2004 12:19 AM


I used to be a creationist long ago, back in high school (before we had the internet). But I ask too many questions, I guess, and have a natural skeptical bent. I realized that the pro-creationist arguments just weren't very good, and came to accept that the theory of evolution was a much better explanation for what we see in biology and geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 07-07-2004 12:19 AM CK has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 29 (122712)
07-07-2004 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Syamsu
07-07-2004 3:43 AM


Syamsu
I wonder what kind of creationists they would be, I mean would they ask such questions as what does a creation event look like?
I highly doubt it since,after all,creationists know what the creation event looked like. Goddidit!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 07-07-2004 3:43 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 13 of 29 (122720)
07-07-2004 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dan Carroll
07-07-2004 12:12 PM


Re: I see the light in Nganjuk
I would try to do it but then I would end up chewing my toes (for the good taste), thinking Gigli was a good film, that Kid Rock CAN sing, and that Candy Evans is a dish washing detergent...so I will stay constrained by methodological naturalism which after multiple replications of the same thread, various parameters tested by different individuals, and Quetzal as a negative control, has lead me to the best possible explanation for the observation.... Syamsu is ignorant and annoying...Wounded King is doing his own independent replication of this study in the Biological Evolution Forum

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 29 (122723)
07-07-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by coffee_addict
07-07-2004 12:50 AM


Well, this is similar to the question, "Did Einstein believe in God". Rather funnily, I came across two sites; One claimed that Einstein didn't believe in God, the other very much did.....Which is frustrating for a truth searcher like me. You see, I wouldn't mind either way, it just interests me as to what a fascinating mind would think of such things. So, Is mike the wiz an evo or not? ...It will be pondered over for many centuries.
All I'll say is that I do think God created this universe, but he didn' tell me how he done it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 12:50 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 07-07-2004 1:47 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 07-07-2004 2:04 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 29 (122724)
07-07-2004 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
07-07-2004 1:31 PM


Actually, Einstein did believe in god. That is one of the main reasons why he spent his life trying to come up with a unifying theory for everything.
Anyway, until you make it clear to the rest of us, you're a hybrid as far as I'm concern

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 07-07-2004 1:31 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 07-07-2004 1:57 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 19 by sidelined, posted 07-07-2004 2:11 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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