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Author Topic:   Does teaching of evolution cause social decay?
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 137 (105472)
05-05-2004 5:10 AM


Why does society seem to be heading in a social decline? Does this social decay have a connection with what generations of children now get taught in school? Most nations now teach that human life is the result of a giant cosmic accident. According to this teaching, billions of years ago 'nothing' exploded and here we are. People, animals, earth, universe, everything all being made by natural processes. This teaching dispenses with a need for a creator God who made everything. God then becomes an idea dreamt up by people but doesn't meet with the facts of reality. If there is no God then there is no one to be accountable to when you die. Since there is no judgement, then man by himself can determine truth without God's word.

Many have trouble finding purpose and meaning in life, which is not surprising. Evolution destroys meaning, purpose and morality. How can mere chemicals produce love, purpose or concepts or right and wrong? Morals then just become a matter of ones opinion. Look around. Everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes. This may include living a morally good life or it may include living a life of a criminal. Since there is no standard of right and wrong how can one person tell another no you can't do that because it's wrong? How arrogant is one to say that my opinion is better than yours. But when people listen to God it's a different story because God has the right to give the rules because he made everything thus he owns everything. Just about every moral truth has descended from the God of the Holy Bible. As nations turn their backs on God, living as if he doesn't exist. Sin abounds - political corruption, lying, slander, debauchery, violent crime, abortion, theft, adultery, drug taking, drunkenness, gambling, and greed. Economic woes and social chaos follow as taxes increase and governments borrow money to pay for bigger police forces, jails, and social security systems to patch up the problems. Evil men like Hitler/Stalin were being totally consistent within evolutionary view. He had no standard for morality and anyone else that doesn't use God's word as a standard could never say Hitler was wrong for doing it. Remember this is a natural evolutionary world where things just happen. If you are an evolutionist you must be consistent with your view

STANDARDS----------------SURIVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

MARRIAGE-----------------SEXUALLY IMMORAL/HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOUR

LAW----------------------LAWLESSNESS

ONE RACE-----------------RACISM

SOCIETY PROSPERS---------SOCIETY CRUMBLES

GOD'S WORD---------------MAN'S OPINION

CREATION-----------------EVOLUTION

A supreme creator who gave law provides a solid foundation for morality and meaning. Where as evolution made everything provides no such basis

Ethics without God?

The first problem Humanists recognize is the effect ethical relativism might have on average men and women. Humanists generally call for avoiding all dogma, since it restricts man for his pursuit on happiness. But how will the common man react to a society without rules and corresponding penalties? To liberate man from all dogma or
authoritarian social institutions weather church or state is no guarantee that they will be aware of their moral responsibility and obligation (Frankly quite the opposite it will become.) Once these social sanctions and standards for morality are pushed away, what will be left? We may very well end with man who is only concerned for his own pleasure, lust, ambition, power and impervious to moral constraints (AKA SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST! Exactly what an evolutionary world is all about.) Humanist imply that only intelligent people are the only people that are really capable of making the correct moral choices. Which also implies that intelligent people should be the moral guides for the rest of society. But isn't this giving the power to a select few to create a dogma that others must follow? Isn't this precisely what humanists have been trying to avoid all along by ignoring religious codes of ethics?

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-05-2004 11:15 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 05-05-2004 12:34 PM almeyda has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Coragyps, posted 05-05-2004 12:41 PM almeyda has responded
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 05-05-2004 12:46 PM almeyda has responded

  
AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 137 (105536)
05-05-2004 12:19 PM


Removed posts involved with pre-approval discussion. Used "Courier New" fontface to display the table of alternatives in midpost. Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-05-2004 11:22 AM


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 137 (105540)
05-05-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by almeyda
05-05-2004 5:10 AM


I guess that the first question is
"Is society heading in a social decline?"

If it is not then the issue is moot.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 5:10 AM almeyda has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14749
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 9 of 137 (105541)
05-05-2004 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AdminSylas
05-05-2004 12:19 PM


Speaking for myself I do not believe that this post should have been approved of as is. It covers too many points while offering no argument beyond ignorant and bigoted assertions. This is not to say that the points may not be discussed, but they should be seperated and supported by reasoned argument so there is some hope of a reasonable discussion.

{ AdminSylas responds -- I'm going to comment briefly in an edit, rather than another post. I hear you. I was torn. Have a look at how many pre-approval posts got deleted. The major issue was something else, and when that got more or less resolved, I opted to allow the post despite its flaws. However, I hear you and will take it under consideration, in consultation with others. Feel free to bring up moderation issues in another thread; perhaps Suggestions and Questions. (There is no review for new topics in that forum.) I accept the comment and agree that what you indicate is a real problem. But let's see how it goes. Almeyda, welcome aboard. You'll get a hot reception with this post, but even if you disagree with responses I hope you'll stick around and practice in how to present your ideas effectively and constructively. }

This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-05-2004 12:15 PM


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 137 (105544)
05-05-2004 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by almeyda
05-05-2004 5:10 AM


Why does society seem to be heading in a social decline? Does this social decay have a connection with what generations of children now get taught in school?

Why does this remind me so strongly of the quote from Socrates about how 'today's children have no respect for their elders and everything's going to hell in a handbasket....' ?

This message has been edited by Coragyps, 05-05-2004 11:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 5:10 AM almeyda has responded

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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 137 (105545)
05-05-2004 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coragyps
05-05-2004 12:41 PM


...
I dont know who that is but i get my information through my own studies and research but Answers In Genesis who i learn the most from..Ive quoted them several several times..
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 12 of 137 (105547)
05-05-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by almeyda
05-05-2004 5:10 AM


quote:
How can mere chemicals produce love, purpose or concepts or right and wrong?

Many social animals also show traits that seem akin to love, purpose, and concepts of right and wrong. You have stated in another thread that you don't believe other animals have souls. So how do you account for love, purpose, and concepts of right and wrong?

quote:
Morals then just become a matter of ones opinion.

This is false. I am an atheist, I believe that there is no God, that the material world is all that exists. And yet, I have found myself doing things against my own narrow self-interest, sometimes gladly, sometimes with great reluctance, because I was compelled to do what I felt was the moral thing to do. Morality isn't just someone's opinion. It is a deep feeling that is partly innate and partly taught.

quote:
Everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes.

This isn't necessarily the fault of evolution. This is the result of the dominant ideology of extreme libertarianism and hyper-capitalism, practiced by people like Ken Lay and the folks at Enron. Funny how the Religious Right (at least here in the US) gives its political support to a capitalist ideology that is based on selfishness and a lack of moral commitment.

The main problem with this argument is that just because you think that evolution leads to unpleasant conclusions has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. Evolution is judged to be valid based on the evidence that supports or refutes it. How you feel about the consequenced is, regrettably, irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 5:10 AM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 137 (105548)
05-05-2004 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:44 PM


Re: ...
But let's start from the beginning.

What evidence can you provide that shows there is social decline or that society is headed towards social decline?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:44 PM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:53 PM jar has responded

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 137 (105549)
05-05-2004 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
05-05-2004 12:48 PM


Re: ...
As nations turn their backs on God, living as if he doesn't exist. Sin abounds - political corruption, lying, slander, debauchery, violent crime, abortion, theft, adultery, drug taking, drunkenness, gambling, and greed. Economic woes and social chaos follow as taxes increase and governments borrow money to pay for bigger police forces, jails, and social security systems to patch up the problems
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 05-05-2004 12:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-05-2004 1:13 PM almeyda has responded
 Message 18 by Coragyps, posted 05-05-2004 1:14 PM almeyda has responded
 Message 19 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 05-05-2004 1:25 PM almeyda has responded

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 137 (105551)
05-05-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
05-05-2004 12:46 PM


...
You must understand that Evolution is the foundation of it all.Just like if Creation was the foundation and theres been plenty the country prospers because there peace.Theres a standard,a absolute,some who has a right to make the rules.What happens when Evolution becomes a foundation?.It ends up survival of the fittest.The Bible gives a life the is in the image of God.Holy.And yes its true it may not be the Evolutions fault if its true but theres alot of evidence for Creation and Against Evolution as ive been debating in a thread.Yes i know you can live morally i mentioned it in the beginning how it may be morally or criminally.But without Gods word we cannot tell another man that he is doing the wrong thing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 05-05-2004 12:46 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14749
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 16 of 137 (105552)
05-05-2004 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:59 PM


Re: ...
If you really believe your first post - and it looks more like an execise in slandering those who disagree with you - can you please actually offer some rational argument ?

For a start if we assume that evolution is true why would we want to use it as a basis of moraliy any more than we base morality on gravity or Schroedinger's uncertainty principle ?

This message has been edited by PaulK, 05-05-2004 12:06 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:59 PM almeyda has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 137 (105553)
05-05-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:53 PM


Re: ...
You still have not supplied any evidence or indicators that we are headed for social decline.

edited to change and to any.

This message has been edited by jar, 05-05-2004 12:15 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 18 of 137 (105554)
05-05-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:53 PM


Re: ...
As nations turn their backs on God, living as if he doesn't exist. Sin abounds - political corruption, lying, slander, debauchery, violent crime, abortion, theft, adultery, drug taking, drunkenness, gambling, and greed. Economic woes and social chaos follow as taxes increase and governments borrow money to pay for bigger police forces, jails, and social security systems to patch up the problems.

And the differences between this and the last 2000 years of history are what?
This message is a reply to:
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Parsimonious_Razor
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 137 (105560)
05-05-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-05-2004 12:53 PM


Re: ...
You have been asked to repeatedly show some evidence of the decline of modern norms, and have failed to do anything other than assert that things are heading down hill. Do you have any facts to back up this statement?

Most societies around the world and throughout history have stayed fairly close to about the same level of "immorality" there are ups and downs but the mean really hasn't shifted. Every generation bemoans the current generation. It is a self-confirming bias; really good arguments do not start with the conclusion despite what creationism might teach.

As a student of evolutionary psychology one of the main areas that I explore is the development of social norms. Evolution can easily derive moral practices and selfless acts, it is not just about survival of the fittest and moral corruption. Hamilton's inclusive fitness principle showed that evolution could operate strongly to select individuals that help out relatives even at a great cost to themselves. Several modern researchers Cosmidies and Tooby have shown how concepts of "reciprocal altruism" arise under evolutionary conditions in social animals and the types of "innate" morals and ideas that people would develop under these circumstances. Far from dictating an immoral development evolution can program very precise moral standards.

Even if you determine that evolution did evolve a behavior that is now viewed as immoral (violence, rape, ect.) it doesn't follow that it’s our morals that should be eliminated. That’s the naturalistic fallacy, what is does not equal what ought to be. Another interesting perspective on this is that for every time evolution followed a development of some totally selfish behavior others in the social group developed means to counter balance it. Evolution is not one sided both the perpetrators and the victims evolve in response to stimuli. There is no purely “immoral” development.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by almeyda, posted 05-05-2004 12:53 PM almeyda has responded

Replies to this message:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 137 (105561)
05-05-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
05-05-2004 1:03 PM


Re: ...
The point is there isnt even a basis for morality!.There is nothing..No Divine guide to living (Well we do in the Bible but lets say the Bible didnt exist).There would be no standard.Just your own opinion.If you kill who the F*CK! could dare tell you your wrong if its your own decision?.Yes theres majority vote,But why should someone listen to there dogma just cause they believe there own thoughts?.If they dont want to? If they have a different standard or opinion?.So it comes back to everyman does what is right in there own eyes.God is someone we can listen to because he has authority and the right to set the rules,He made all thus owns all.
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2004 2:08 PM almeyda has not yet responded
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 Message 54 by tsjok45, posted 05-06-2004 7:06 AM almeyda has responded

  
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