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Author Topic:   coded information in DNA
WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 1 of 334 (509882)
05-25-2009 7:13 PM


Hi guys, I couldn't find a thread on this specific question which I'm sure has been mentioned somewhere, please forgive me. But how do we account for the coded symbolic information in DNA through the laws of physics and chemistry?
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 05-25-2009 8:27 PM WordBeLogos has responded
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 Message 233 by LucyTheApe, posted 06-12-2009 8:40 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 334 (509885)
05-25-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by WordBeLogos
05-25-2009 7:13 PM


Much More Detail Please
This is an interesting topic to discuss.

However, before it can be promoted we'd need to see a lot more detail.

Please define "coded symbolic information" so we know what is being discussed. That would be a good start.

Then you should offer your own views on the subject. That is, to you think there is or is not a problem for DNA to have this stuff and why do you think that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-25-2009 7:13 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-25-2009 9:39 PM AdminNosy has responded

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 3 of 334 (509890)
05-25-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
05-25-2009 8:27 PM


Re: Much More Detail Please
Hello AdminNosy,

Coded information = a system of symbols used by an encoding / decoding mechanism that transmits a message which is seperate from the communication medium itself.

Examples would be english, computer languages, radio signal and music and yes, DNA. All known codes always involve a system of symbols which represent a idea, concept or plans etc.

As far as my view on this, I don't see how the laws of physics and chemistry alone can account for the coded information contained in DNA. All known codes that we know the origin of always come from intelligent activity.

The next question I suppose is will we all agree DNA contains coded information or not. I say it most surely does based on information theory itself. We can start here I guess, thx.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 05-25-2009 8:27 PM AdminNosy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 05-25-2009 9:50 PM WordBeLogos has responded
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 05-27-2009 7:15 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 334 (509891)
05-25-2009 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by WordBeLogos
05-25-2009 9:39 PM


Re: Much More Detail Please
I guess the topic is done with then.

Since DNA's "message" is not separate from the medium at all it doesn't meet the definition of you Coded Information.

DNA is just chemistry. Can you explain why you think it is anything more?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-25-2009 9:39 PM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 1:36 AM AdminNosy has responded

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 5 of 334 (509907)
05-26-2009 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminNosy
05-25-2009 9:50 PM


Re: Much More Detail Please
Seperate in the sense that paper and ink does not account for the information in a book. Books cannot be reduced to paper and ink and DNA is not reducible to chemicals.

A book containing random letters contains no message. A hypothetical DNA molecule with random bases contains no plan / instructions for an organism. But a real book and a real DNA molecule both contain real codes represented by symbols composed of real matter that represent real useful information and uniquely specify external objects, processes and ideas. The code itself is an immaterial entity.

Naturalistic explanations may provide the materials, but still fail to explain the origin of the code. Why? Because coded information is an immaterial entity and based on all known observation, is only created by mental processes.


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 Message 4 by AdminNosy, posted 05-25-2009 9:50 PM AdminNosy has responded

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 6 of 334 (509910)
05-26-2009 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 1:36 AM


Re: Much More Detail Please
Since DNA is very much reducible to chemicals you might want to do more research before you try to discuss this.

But I'll let this go for now.

You will have to support your arguments with evidence or this thread will be closed.

All you have done so far is make unsupported assertions. That will not be allowed to continue.

You have a few days to get it sorted out.


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 Message 5 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 1:36 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 7 of 334 (509911)
05-26-2009 2:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM AdminNosy has responded

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 8 of 334 (509921)
05-26-2009 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AdminNosy
05-26-2009 2:18 AM


AdminNosy,

1- DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern, it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2- All codes are created by a conscious mind, there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3- Therefore DNA was designed by intelligence.

If you can provide an example of a code or language that occurs naturally you can prove this false. All you need is one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AdminNosy, posted 05-26-2009 2:18 AM AdminNosy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 5:49 AM WordBeLogos has responded
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 05-26-2009 6:18 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded
 Message 13 by mark24, posted 05-26-2009 6:55 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 05-26-2009 7:51 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 9 of 334 (509922)
05-26-2009 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


All codes are created by a conscious mind ...

Petitio principii.

If you can provide an example of a code or language that occurs naturally you can prove this false. All you need is one.

The genetic code.

Are we done here?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 6:03 AM Dr Adequate has responded

WordBeLogos
Member (Idle past 3557 days)
Posts: 103
From: Ohio
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 10 of 334 (509924)
05-26-2009 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2009 5:49 AM


Hi Dr,

The genetic code is the very thing in question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2009 5:49 AM Dr Adequate has responded

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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 11 of 334 (509925)
05-26-2009 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


Who created English?
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 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 334 (509927)
05-26-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 6:03 AM


The genetic code is the very thing in question.

Quite so. And yet you take it as a premise that "all codes [in which you include the genetic code] are created by a conscious mind".

In the same way, you can prove that President Obama is white --- if I will only grant you the premise that all American Presidents (in which we include President Obama) are white.

It's very easy to prove anything if you are allowed to postulate, without proof, a premise that includes your conclusion.

This method has, as someone remarked, many advantages: they are the advantages of theft over honest toil.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 6:03 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3359 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 334 (509931)
05-26-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


WordBeLogos,

2- All codes are created by a conscious mind, there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.

Let's be more specific, all codes are made by man.

3- Therefore DNA was designed by man.

This is as correct as your logic, yet I suspect you wouldn't accept the resulting conclusion. Why? Because assumption 2 is untenable, you simply don't know that codes are made exclusively by intelligence.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3505
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 14 of 334 (509939)
05-26-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


Gravity, and any other natural force described by equations
WordBeLogos writes:

If you can provide an example of a code or language that occurs naturally you can prove this false. All you need is one.

Gravity.

Gravity is the natural code or language that describes the forces on objects due to other objects.

The equations describing gravity represents the code. Objects themselves are information storage mechanisms about the amount of gravitational force they naturally possess. The code is transmitted from one object to another via space-time itself at the speed of light.

Gravity was not created by a conscious mind, it is a simple, naturally occuring process of the universe known to science that creates coded information.

Therefore gravity was not designed by intelligence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by WordBeLogos, posted 05-26-2009 5:44 AM WordBeLogos has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18482
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 15 of 334 (509942)
05-26-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by WordBeLogos
05-26-2009 5:44 AM


This topic requires some precise definitions, most importantly for information. Science already has a formal definition for information, but I have a feeling that isn't the definition you're using. So how are you defining information?

A definition of code would also be helpful.

Agreement on definition of terms is a prerequisite for this discussion.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
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