Morality without God

Something that has really been bugging me is that all you atheists who don't believe in God talk like morals are something that ought to be followed. However, you say that morals are merely the result of evolution and social custom. This definition of morals tells me merely how the morals came to be, not why I should follow them.So let me ask you this question: Why should I follow the moral laws that were created by evolution and social custom? If breaking them helps me and/or gives me pleasure, why shouldn't I break them?

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Because social pressure will oppose you as well as your own interests.If you do not aid others when they need help, they will not aid you when you need help. If you get too far out of line, to selfish, they might even band together to sanction you.Cooperation, moral behaviour, is most often in the best interest of the majority of people.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

While that works to restrain someone who habitually breaks moral laws, it does not work for a single act. Lets say that a particular act will have no consequences on me from anyone else. In other words, I don't have to worry about getting caught, not recieving help later in my life, or being punished by the justice system. No one will know of my deed. Why should I not commit that act?

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

Will the act have no consequences for another person (or sentient being, I guess...), too? If not, go ahead! If it won't cause you anguish because your mommy told you not to do it when you were a tyke, what's stopping you?

If it causes no harm to others, why shouldn't you do whatever it is?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Lets say that the act will inflict great harm on another. However I will not be caught and no retaliation will ever be taken against me. Is there any reason for me not do hurt this other person?

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If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

I think most of our secularist members regard themselves as agnostics rather than athiests. It seems that a little voice inside them or something says, "observe a measure of morality, just in case there is a god." Otherwise, if death is the end and nothing to account for, I see no reason for an athiest to care a snap about morality.I don't see natural selection achieving all of the physical things we observe, let alone the soulish unseen stuff of the psyche.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-13-2004 09:54 PM

Of course. The same thing that might stop you from such an act in any moral system.The fear you might just get caught.The knowledge that if you do get away with it, then there is no reason for anyone else in the same position to not cause great harm to you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why would that matter to us, when we are assured by so many of your side that our morality means nothing to your god?An afterlife isn't the only time one would be accountable for their actions. Personally, I'm more worried about what my fellow man says about my behavior.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Oh, but it does. We will all be judged, the just and the unjust. As to how that judgement affects the ultimate welfare of the unsaved only God knows. This Bible seems to imply in places that the state of some is worse than others. Regardless of how one lives, an atonement must be received for sins, since all have sinned. True, but I'm thinking about things many secularists don't regard as evil, such as homosexuality and adultery, wicca, and so forth which the Bible regards as evil.

And in any case, the true basis of morality was enunciated long ago by Mammy Yokum, in the comic strip "Lil' Abner:""Good is better than evil because it's nicer!"

You are also making an assumption that your beliefs influence our behavior and thoughts. I don't believe in your coming judgment so the threat of it does not affect how I act.If the issue is why would atheists follow a moral system you can't answer with your beliefs. edited to change thought to threatThis message has been edited by Asgara, 08-13-2004 10:25 PM

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Adultery, Buz? I don't think I'd use "evil" as the description there, but foolin' around on the spouse is damn sure something I wouldn't do (and haven't done) - it's potentially very hurtful to a person who trusts you a great deal, and most of us don't care for having a spouse pull that trick on us.
Homosexuality has been beaten to death around here lately; Wicca is just another flavor of theism; you failed to mention eating catfish or shrimp - those are abominations, not just any measly "immorality."

This is a long standing problem in actuality and in philosophy.
Religion and the soldier were early practical solutions. Like all solutions they are partially successful. The promise of heaven and the threat of hell are one carrot and stick system. The belief in karma is another. Brain science and psychology offer other approaches. No solution is complete nor 100% effective. Conditioning, social conscious, personal conscious don't require a religious carrot and stick, and religious belief is not entirely successful at inhibiting wrong doing.If the only reason you refrain from living a life of gross immorality is because you fear hell or greatly value what you think heaven will give you then let me encourage you in your religious belief!But my impression of you gained from reading your posts for a few days now is that you care about issues of right and wrong and care to have positive relationships with your fellow humans. So I think a complex of motivations will frequently balance your impulses to selfish wrong doing. But I don't believe any human is perfect which is a counterpart to the christian notion that all humans are sinners so I expect everyone to make mistakes, to have lapses of judgement, control, or discipline for whatever reason.Religion is one way of promoting the social good and socially cooperative and supportive behaviours but it's not the only way, and the middle eastern concept of a god watching to punish all wrong doers is not the only way to do it religiously even.There is no solution that gives 100% results. I don't know your real life social milieu but there is a good chance you know actual good (not perfect but generally reliable) people who don't share your belief that immorality will be punished by an omnipresent omniscent god. Are you afraid of these people compared to your fellow co-religionists?lfen