FREE WILL....... or is it.

after discussing this idea with a couple of my friends i have come with a few questions.1. Is god Omniscient (all knowing)
2. Do we have free will?
3. If yes to the previous. Does god create an atheist or a murderer with the knowledge that he or she will "choose" the wrong path?
4. If yes to 3. did god create that soul for the purpose of being damned?

1 & 2 are unknowable ... so 3 & 4 cannot be
determined.1 is unknowable because we do not know anything about
the true nature, or indeed existence, of god.2 is unknowable because at any decision point we will only
make one of a number of possible decisions (as far as our
perceptions go). That being the case we cannot know if it
was predetermined. The appointment in Sumatra springs to
mind (is that the right city???).

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

1. Is god Omniscient (all knowing)If he is, then he knows my answer would be no. Kinda weird when you think about it.2. Do we have free will?No, but we should "Free Willy"Alas, I must stop here.CheersJoe Meert

So, Freaky, do you really believe that god creates atheists or murderers with the knowledge that he or she will "choose" the wrong path?

God creates everyone able to choose a path. Then they are accountable for what path they chose.He didn't create them a murderer or atheist, they chose to be a murderer or an athiest.Free will.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

funkmasterfreaky writes:

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God creates everyone able to choose a path. Then they are accountable for what path they chose.

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He didn't create them a murderer or atheist, they chose to be a murderer or an athiest.

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Free will.

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Wrong. If god knows what path we are going to take then we no longer have a choice, our actions are then predetermined and cannot be altered, ergo, no free will.------------------
compmage

That's what I've heard around here it still makes no sense to me. Just because I know someone will choose something doesn't mean I affected their ability to make that choice.I know you still don't like that answer but your logic confuses me to no end.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

funkmasterfreaky writes:

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That's what I've heard around here it still makes no sense to me. Just because I know someone will choose something doesn't mean I affected their ability to make that choice.

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I know you still don't like that answer but your logic confuses me to no end.

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You could be wrong, meaning the person could still choose something other than what you think in which case he still has free will. God supposedly can't be wrong, which means you can't make any other choice. How is it free will when there is only really one option?------------------
compmage

You still made the choice. God's foreknowledge didn't effect your decision. You made that choice.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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You still made the choice. God's foreknowledge didn't effect your decision. You made that choice

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Its not a choice when you only have one option.Consider the perfect oracle who can predict everything with 100% accuracy. This oracle writes down whether you will pick one of two boxes, say A or B.As you step up to the boxes you have a free choice between either A or B, but of course the oracle has correctly predicted this every time, because as we know, the oracle is 100% accurate.Now lets say, before you pick a box, the oracle tells you that you're going to pick box A. You can't pick box B now because if you did, that would mean the oracle was wrong, and the oracle is correct 100% of the time. So you are forced to pick box A.The situation is exactly the same in practice as when you didn't know the prediction. You didn't have a choice at all.Succintly, if the oracle is 100% correct then your path is already mapped out ahead of you. You may feel you're making decisions and choices, but things could not be any other way and there is no way of acting outside that future which is already predetermined. Its not so much that you wouldn't pick box B in my example above, its that its impossible for you to pick box B.PE

It would be impossible if the oracle told me what choice I would make. God doesn't do this. He knows what we will choose, but does not interfere. Therefore because we don't know what he knows we still have that choice.I cannot understand this logic you guys use to deny the idea of free-will.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Funk, buddie, it doesn't make any difference whether you know or not.If the oracle is infallible, anything predicted is locked in tight.If God is infallible, anything predicted is locked in tight.SO you have:1) God is omniscient and infallible, and there is no free will.2) God is omniscient but not infallible, and there is free will.3) God is not-omniscient but is ifallible, and there is free will.4) God is neither omniscient nor infallible, and there is free will.Take your pick.------------------
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I dont know if this is even worth commenting on, I mean;"It would be impossible if the oracle told me what choice I would make. God doesn't do this. He knows what we will choose, but does not interfere. Therefore because we don't know what he knows we still have that choice.I cannot understand this logic you guys use to deny the idea of free-will."So you are saying we only have on posibility in life yet we are free choose our life?!Judging by what has been said God creates a murderer to be a murderer then punishes him/her for this action? Its like breeding a savage dog for fighting them complaining when it bites another dog, after all the dog had free will didnt it?Bald ape

But you still make the choices you make. God doesn't affect that decision, he just knows. This does not have any impact on your ability to choose B over A, just that someone knows what you will choose.I have nothing more to add to this discussion for the time being. I don't even understand the argument against free will, and I just keep repeating myself.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.