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Author Topic:   The Gory Details of 'Miracles'
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4057 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 1 of 123 (373518)
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Dear Admins,

Assuming I can get a good OP going, I have heard that this topic might prove interesting. I would like to discuss some of the lesser known Catholic 'miracles' and I say Catholic because that is what I am familiar with.

To be specific, I was thinking of Incorruptibility, Eucharistic Miracles, Stigmata, and possibly such things as bilocution or ESP said to be possessed by certain priests.

This is not an attempt to discover whether or not these things can be proved as miracles i.e., supernatural phenomena, but to discuss possible scientific explanations, or whether some event that is unusual in nature could be used by God as a sign.

Also interested in parallels of the same type in other religions or scientific examples of the same phenomena happening elsewhere.

A brief description of Incorruptibility; in the RCC there are around 100 saints who are reported to be incorrupt i.e., their flesh, bones, brain, heart, or entire body were found to be preserved for an unnaturally long period of time. In a few cases there was obvious attempts to enbalm or mummify the body of a devout person, and in other cases the temperature of certain burial vaults is said to have hovered in a perfect range to avoid the decay caused by bacteria. Yet, in other cases their is no evident explanation yet. Good examples are St Zita who died in the 1300 century, and St Cherbel Maklouf who remained intact tho' found buried in mud.

Eucharistic miracles are cases in where the bread and wine used in Communion are said to have become actual flesh and blood. In some of them, the flesh was examined and found to be human heart tissue, and the blood to be human blood type AB. This is not so astonishing in itself, but it is reported that after centuries the flesh and blood have retained the properties of fresh human flesh, and the blood even when dry has retained the chemical properties of fresh blood, and that of a man in agony.

So what think ye?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminSchraf, posted 01-01-2007 10:52 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 5 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 11:35 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 8 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 11:44 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 12 by limbosis, posted 01-02-2007 1:24 AM anastasia has responded
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-02-2007 3:29 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 01-02-2007 3:42 PM anastasia has responded

    
AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 123 (373563)
01-01-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Well, I'm a bit confused about where you want this to be discussed, due to the following:

quote:
This is not an attempt to discover whether or not these things can be proved as miracles i.e., supernatural phenomena, but to discuss possible scientific explanations, or whether some event that is unusual in nature could be used by God as a sign.

Since there are different rules regarding what is required as evidence between the science and faith fora, I think you might be better off choosing which type of discussion you would like to have.

Do you want a discussion of scientific explanations for specific miracles, or a discussion of signs from God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 8:43 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4057 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 3 of 123 (373568)
01-01-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminSchraf
01-01-2007 10:52 PM



adminschraf writes:

Well, I'm a bit confused about where you want this to be discussed, due to the following:

Yes, I think I will skip the part about religious signifigance of any kind, unless mentioning things similar which occur in other religions. I half had a topic in mind about revelations after the Bible and what some of the 'miracles' are supposed to have taught us about God, but am more interested in hearing opinions about causes etc. this round.

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
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AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 123 (373578)
01-01-2007 11:22 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 5 of 123 (373582)
01-01-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


So what think ye?

I think you could do better, but good luck with it. I'd tell you more but there's pissy people around.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 8:43 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 11:39 PM Rob has responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4057 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 6 of 123 (373584)
01-01-2007 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rob
01-01-2007 11:35 PM


scottness writes:

I think you could do better,

Better in what aspect? Creating a topic, or writing up this one?


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 Message 5 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 11:35 PM Rob has responded

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 7 of 123 (373586)
01-01-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by anastasia
01-01-2007 11:39 PM


Better in what aspect? Creating a topic, or writing up this one?

I sent you an answer privately... Good luck with the topic.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 123 (373587)
01-01-2007 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


St Cherbel Maklouf is probably not that unusual. Being buried in mud could well produce a anaerobic environment.

St Zita is a whole different story. I am not familiar with anything supernatural about her body or preservation. Her grave was discovered a couple hundred years after her death and the grave was intact as well as seeming undisturbed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4057 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 9 of 123 (373593)
01-02-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
01-01-2007 11:44 PM


jar writes:

St Cherbel Maklouf is probably not that unusual. Being buried in mud could well produce a anaerobic environment.

I will update here the spelling of the name -Charbel Makhlouf-.

St Zita is a whole different story. I am not familiar with anything supernatural about her body or preservation. Her grave was discovered a couple hundred years after her death and the grave was intact as well as seeming undisturbed.

I can not say whether there is something supernatural about any of the bodies found, or just some factor of preservation not obvious yet.


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limbosis
Member (Idle past 4383 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 10 of 123 (373597)
01-02-2007 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
01-01-2007 11:42 PM


Come on.
I sent you an answer privately... Good luck with the topic.

C'mooooon. We're all family here.

Edited by limbosis, : added quote box


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limbosis
Member (Idle past 4383 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 11 of 123 (373598)
01-02-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
01-01-2007 11:44 PM


Being buried in mud...
Being buried in mud could well produce a anaerobic environment.

Good point, jar
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limbosis
Member (Idle past 4383 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 12 of 123 (373599)
01-02-2007 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


a man in agony?
and that of a man in agony.

What do you mean by that?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4057 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 13 of 123 (373602)
01-02-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by limbosis
01-02-2007 1:24 AM


Re: a man in agony?
limbosis writes:

What do you mean by that?

Well, that is what I am trying to find out. What I have read is that there are certain blood samples found on altar clothes which have the biochemical marks of a person in trauma.


This message is a reply to:
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limbosis
Member (Idle past 4383 days)
Posts: 120
From: United States
Joined: 12-06-2006


Message 14 of 123 (373614)
01-02-2007 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by anastasia
01-02-2007 1:43 AM


Re: a man in agony?
... there are certain blood samples found on altar clothes which have the biochemical marks of a person in trauma.

I would suspect that ALL blood samples on altar clothes have marks of a person in trauma.

But, what biochemical marks are you talking about?


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 15 of 123 (373741)
01-02-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
01-01-2007 8:43 PM


Miraculous miracles
Incorruptibility

As far as incorruptibility goes, I know very little about any cases of such. You mentioned a couple of cases. One of them was Saint Zita. I don't know much about her, but I did track down a postmortem photo and, although she appears fairly well preserved, she also appears to be in the early stages of genuine putrefaction.

Stigmata

This phenomenon has always interested me, but I don't know enough about it to make any kind of assertion. I'm certain that some people have committed fraud to pass it off as a legitimate phenomenon, but I can't say whether true stigmata has occurred as the result of a divine miracle.

ESP said to be possessed by certain priests.

Again, I'm interested in this subject but couldn't tell you one way or the other how I feel about it. I know that we all have some sort of intuition and I can't explain that currently. Perhaps people with ESP have a very heightened sense of intuition. I'm also fascinated with deja vu, which I associate along the lines of extra sensory perception. I actually had a case of it about a half an hour ago. I also can't explain this phenomenon, however, that's not to say that it can't be rationally explained.

I know that the CIA invested a lot of time with this field of study. Certainly they believed that it was worth the time and money and to tap into it. Of all the "miracles" listed, this one seems to me to be the least miraculous. If it is real, I certainly would ascribe that to God, but only in the sense that we all have abilities and qualities to us that are unique. A miracle is a very, very special event that typically defies the laws of physics-- which of course, is what makes it so memorable and special in the first place.

This is not an attempt to discover whether or not these things can be proved as miracles i.e., supernatural phenomena, but to discuss possible scientific explanations, or whether some event that is unusual in nature could be used by God as a sign.

Incorruptibility could easily be understood scientifically. It would be exceedingly difficult to prove that as a miracle. Some bodies preserve incredibly well after exhumation, while others decay into dust with a few years. There are a lot of factors. The amount of oxygen present, microbials, whether embalming techniques were employed, etc. But if a body remained intact for, say, 1000 years, I would find it incredibly difficult to understand that through science alone.

Stigmata, if legitimate, seems so implausibly coincidental to be explained scientifically, that if it were found conclusive, it would likely certify as a genuine miracle.

Also interested in parallels of the same type in other religions or scientific examples of the same phenomena happening elsewhere.

That could also undermine its integrity though. The more common something is, especially all over the world, the more likely it is a natural phenomenon than a miraculous one.

Eucharistic miracles are cases in where the bread and wine used in Communion are said to have become actual flesh and blood. In some of them, the flesh was examined and found to be human heart tissue, and the blood to be human blood type AB.

Transubstantiation is certainly an interesting topic. If analysis indeed confirmed that the wine literally turned into blood, and the wafer literally turned into flesh, I don't see how any natural phenomenon could resolve that. That certainly would be miraculous.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 01-02-2007 7:19 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
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