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Author Topic:   20 Questions... (from Walt Brown to evolutionists)
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2757 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 1 of 46 (77138)
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


The poster Whatever has been talking about Walt Brown for a while now in another thread, and was kind enough to post his website, which I found to be very typical... Anyway, one aspect caught my eye - the twenty questions that Brown would like evolutionists to answer. Now, I am only a geologist and many of these are miles outside my area of expertise, but I think that between all of us, we can tackle them.

I've started already - my answers are in italics.

Here they are:

1. Where has macroevolution ever been observed? What’s the mechanism for getting new complexity, such as new vital organs? If any of the thousands of vital organs evolved, how could the organism live before getting the vital organ? (Without a vital organ, the organism is dead—by definition.) If a reptile’s leg evolved into a bird’s wing, wouldn’t it become a bad leg long before it became a good wing? How could metamorphosis evolve?

2. Do you realize how complex living things are? How could organs as complicated as the eye or the ear or the brain of even a tiny bird ever come about by chance or natural processes? How could a bacterial motor evolve? How could such motors work until all components evolved completely and were precisely in place?

3. If macroevolution happened, where are the billions of transitional fossils that should be there? Billions! Not a handful of questionable transitions. Why don’t we see a reasonably smooth continuum among all living creatures, or in the fossil record, or both?

There's a few things wrong here - most notably that not all things that die are fossilised, not all fossils are accessible on the surface, not all accessible fossils have been excavated, not all fossils that are removed are studied, and not all that are studied are put in transition sequences. Also punctuated equilibrium ensures that you cannot expect a smooth transition every time.

4. Textbooks show an evolutionary tree, but where is its trunk and where are its branches? For example, what are the evolutionary ancestors of the insects?

This confused me... Is he talking about fossil lineages? Cladograms? Why is he messing about with a metaphor?

5. How could the first living cell begin? That’s a greater miracle than for bacteria to evolve into man. How could that first cell reproduce? Just before life appeared, did the atmosphere have oxygen or did it not have oxygen? Whichever choice you make creates a terrible problem for evolution. Both must come into existence at about the same time.

Abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution couldn't care less how life came to be; just that it happened.

6. Please point to a strictly natural process that creates information. What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself? What about the 4,000 books of coded information that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells? If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the vast information sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacterium also imply an intelligent source?

7. Which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA, which can only be produced by DNA?

8. How could sexual reproduction evolve? How could immune systems evolve?

Because they were selected for and became dominant traits.

9. If it takes intelligence to make an arrowhead, why doesn’t it take vastly more intelligence to create a human? Do you really believe that hydrogen will turn into people if you wait long enough?

It doesn't take more intelligence to make a human - after all, we do it all the time.

10. If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least 30 moons revolve backwards?

The solar system did not evolve.

11. Can you name one reasonable hypothesis on how the moon got there—any hypothesis that is consistent with all the data? Why aren’t students told the scientific reasons for rejecting all the evolutionary theories for the moon’s origin? What about the other 128+ moons in the solar system?

Yes, there are several reasonable hypotheses on how the moon got there. One is that it was created with the Earth; another is that a planetoid collided with the Earth at a very early stage and threw out enough material to make the moon.

12. Where did matter, space, time, energy, or even the laws of physics come from? What about water?

Who cares? Maybe God. This has nothing to do with evolution. I don't know why he thinks water is important though.

13. How could stars evolve?

Stars don't evolve.

14. Are you aware of all the unreasonable assumptions and contradictory evidence used by those who say the earth is billions of years old?

Sigh... I can't answer this. I'll only start breaking forum guidelines. Anyone else want to have a go?

15. Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination.

16. Did you know that most scientific dating techniques indicate that the earth, solar system, and universe are young?

Blatant lie. Most dating techniques I am familiar with say that the Earth, at least, is old.

17. Why do so many ancient cultures have flood legends?

18. Have you heard about the mitochondrial Eve and the genetic Adam? Scientists know that the mitochondrial Eve was the common female ancestor of every living person, and she appears to have lived only about 6,000–7,000 years ago.

I could be wrong but I think there actually were seven mitochondrial "Eve's". Anyone?

19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, terrestrial-like brines, and earthlike isotopic patterns. Doesn’t this implicate Earth as their source—and a powerful launcher, “the fountains of the great deep"?

20. Would you explain the origin of any of the following 25 features of the earth:

The Grand Canyon and Other Canyons - Sedimentation and Erosion
Mid-Oceanic Ridge - Tectonics
Continental Shelves and Slopes - Tectonics
Ocean Trenches - Tectonics
Seamounts and Tablemounts
Earthquakes - Tectonics
Magnetic Variations on the Ocean Floor - Tectonics
Submarine Canyons - Sedimentation and Erosion
Coal and Oil Formations - Sedimentation and Erosion
Methane Hydrates - ? What's he talking about?
Ice Age - Climate change caused by Tectonics
Frozen Mammoths - Caused by dead mammoths getting frozen
Major Mountain Ranges - Tectonics
Overthrusts - Tectonics
Volcanoes and Lava - Tectonics
Geothermal Heat - Tectonics
Strata and Layered Fossils - Sedimentation and Erosion
Metamorphic Rock - Tectonics, Sedimentation and Erosion
Limestone - Sedimentation and Erosion
Plateaus - Sedimentation and Erosion
Salt Domes - Sedimentation and Erosion
Jigsaw Fit of the Continents - Tectonics
Changing Axis Tilt - Tectonics
Comets - Not a feature of the Earth
Asteroids and Meteoroids - Not a feature of the Earth

I cheated a little on the last bit there - this post is getting too long to go into any kind of detail on the individual features. If I'm wrong anywhere please point it out - as a scientist, of course, accuracy is far more important than my ego

The Rock Hound

[This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-08-2004]

[This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-08-2004]


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 426 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 2 of 46 (77143)
01-08-2004 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


17. Why do so many ancient cultures have flood legends?

Because most ancient cultures sprung up on flood planes (because they are very fertile land), thus flood was a real and meaningful threat in their lives. It is not far from having floods as being a real and meaningful threat to having myths about a really big one. Most myths involve things which are meaningful (and often threatening) in the lives of the myth makers. For example there are great many myths involving people or monsters stealing children.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 46 (77152)
01-08-2004 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


quote:
6. Please point to a strictly natural process that creates information.

Selection of mutations that confer positive fitness in the environment the organism is in. Positive mutations become entrenched in the population and more positive mutations are added to this through selection. It is the accumalation of positive mutations as selected for by the environment that adds information to the genome.

quote:
What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself?

Unknown right now, DNA may not have been the first replicating molecule. As of now RNA looks to be the best explanation but this is still very tentative.

quote:
What about the 4,000 books of coded information that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells?

What about the writings in those books that fit into very neat nested hierarchies that show common descent?

quote:
If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the vast information sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacterium also imply an intelligent source?

Show me the information created by intelligence and the information caused by mutation. As far as I can see, those two can not be separated, if intelligence was even involved. If aliens transmitted the genome of E. coli, what would they be trying to communicate?


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roxrkool
Member
Posts: 1495
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 4 of 46 (77156)
01-08-2004 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


rockhound:

Methane Hydrates - ? What's he talking about?


They're an unconventional energy source that has garnered much interest in the last 10 years or so. Pretty interesting stuff. Some think it may have been a major factor in historic global climate change.

Check out the USGS Fact sheet Gas (Methane) Hydrates -- A New Frontier.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15578
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 5 of 46 (77158)
01-08-2004 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


quote:

5. How could the first living cell begin? That’s a greater miracle than for bacteria to evolve into man. How could that first cell reproduce? Just before life appeared, did the atmosphere have oxygen or did it not have oxygen? Whichever choice you make creates a terrible problem for evolution. Both must come into existence at about the same time.

As well as the confusion between evolution and abiogenesis it is worth pointing out that Brown is completely at sea on the issue of oxygen.

In fact it is unlikely that there was any significant amount of free oxygen on Earth when life began - and photosynthesis is responsible for changing that situation. It is completely false to say that life requires oxygen - indeed it would almost certainly have been a lethal poison to early life.

This error in itself shows how appallingly uninformed Brown is. (Does he not even know that plants do not need free oxygen and in fact produce it as a byproduct of photsynthesis ?)


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6814
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 6 of 46 (77163)
01-08-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


quote:
13. How could stars evolve?

Stars don't evolve.


Actually, stars do evolve. But the stellar evolution is different from biological evolution; one important difference is that in biological evolution it is populations that change over generations, while in stellar evolution it is individual stars that change over time.


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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 46 (77397)
01-09-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
01-08-2004 10:59 AM


quote:
10. If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least 30 moons revolve backwards?

The solar system did not evolve.



--Actually, the solar system did evolve. In fact, my favorite book on solar system evolution is indeed titled, The origin and evolution of the solar system by M.M. Woolfson.

The Origin and Evolution of the Solar System

--And another great book on solar system evolution is.. solar system evolution :

solar system evolution

--Nevertheless, Brown's argument here only shows a complete lack of understanding on even the basics of solar system evolution. If he had an idea of what theories are available for the origin and evolution of satellite systems, he would not be making this claim. Well on second thought, maybe he would...

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 01-09-2004]


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3908
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 8 of 46 (78062)
01-12-2004 3:44 PM


Another wimpy topic title modified
I added the "(from Walt Brown to evolutionists)" part.

AM


  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 9 of 46 (78098)
01-12-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Jack
01-08-2004 11:37 AM


Not good enough in my book.

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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 10 of 46 (78099)
01-12-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Jack
01-08-2004 11:37 AM


Not good enough in my book.


Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 46 (78106)
01-12-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
01-12-2004 8:36 PM


Not good enough in my book.

Why not? For that matter, if the Flud did occur, why doesn't every culture have a flood myth?

Let me get this straight: out of two possibilities to explain why some cultures have flood myths:

1) they have similar myths because we observe they live in similar places; i.e. prone to flooding, or

2) a massive, worldwide flood destroyed all but 8 humans and a few animals, who miraculously were able to restore all life, despite the fact that a number of civilizations at the time failed to notice that they were at the bottom of the sea, and in spite of all geologic and biological evidence to the contrary

you take number 2 over number 1? Crazy...


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6814
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 12 of 46 (78107)
01-12-2004 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by joshua221
01-12-2004 8:36 PM


oops! got the intent wrong!
Welcome back, Iron Man.

What isn't good enough? Mr. Jack's attempt to "disprove" the flood? I don't think he's trying to prove Noah's flood didn't occur, at least not in that particular post; I suspect that he's arguing that we don't have any good reason to believe the flood did occur. In particular, he's explaining why the "Why does every culture have a flood myth" argument is not convincing.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 13 of 46 (78111)
01-12-2004 9:38 PM


And just one question from Coragyps to Walt Brown:
Walt, do you really believe that crap about the Fountains of the Deep launching the freakin' asteroid belt?

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 14 of 46 (78112)
01-12-2004 9:42 PM


Q19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, terrestrial-like brines, and earthlike isotopic patterns. Doesn’t this implicate Earth as their source—and a powerful launcher, “the fountains of the great deep"?

What ever happened to the meterite that scientist assured us came from Mars, how did it get launched from Mars, guess if meterites have bacteria, salt water, limestone, and isotope patterns of earth, likely they were launched from the earth, like the meterite that esteemed scientists assured us came from Mars, etc...

P.S. If scientists feel a rock was launched from Mars, guess its not much of a reach to feel rocks were launched from earth, etc...

Q18: Walt Brown said Eve could of been 6,000 - 7,000 years, think Walt must believe one day to God is a thousand of our years, for if Adam was created on the 6th creation day that would make Eve between 6000-7000 years, I just found that interesting.

[This message has been edited by whatever, 01-12-2004]


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6814
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 15 of 46 (78116)
01-12-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by johnfolton
01-12-2004 9:42 PM


I would like to see a reliable source describing these meteorites. I'm sure the existence of bacteria and the rest (supposing that the claims are accurate) are contamination in meteorites that have been "sitting around" for a long while. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few meteorites did originate on the earth, and were blasted into space by a huge impact, only to return later. We have examples of meteorites that have been identified as originating from other bodies; the SNC meteorites, for example, are believed to have originated on Mars.

And Mitochondrial Eve is believed to have lived between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago. I have no idea where this "6000-7000 year" business came from.


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