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Author Topic:   The Great Compromise
Utrimque
Junior Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 7
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 1 of 58 (420776)
09-09-2007 2:33 PM


Has anyone ever considered the fact that neither evolution or creationism actually contradict?

Evolution: The creation of new types organisms by a complex series of genetic modifications and natural selection.

Creationism: The creation of the universe and all thats in it by god(s for you polytheistic types)

In their most basic sense it means that god created the universe, big bang, and all of its/his/her laws are merely tools for making sure that every thing runs smoothly.

Couldn't god use evolution, knowing that humans would be created as a result?

Would it be so overreaching to assume that god created the universe in such a way that with the laws as he created, (physics, gravity, magnetism, chemistry, ect.), to cause the big bang to unfurl in such a way that it would create the earth and know that intelligent life would spring up in an exact way? (God is omnipotent after all.)

A very simplified example of this is John Conway’s Game of Life. By using very simple rules a combination of cells will always produce the same effect no matter how many times you restart the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life

This in mind: unless you believe that the earth jumped from the head of god fully formed, that the laws of the universe are subject to sudden change (i.e. 2+2=5 or fluctuating gravity), that the entire earth (including New Zealand) was covered by water, that a very small boat held every life form on earth for a month and a half with out losing any thing, that the entire human race was developed from several Jewish people on the so said boat (every one else died, didn't they?), or that George Bush is the new son of god (a select five of you out there) then their is no possible way this could work and I don't think I could change your mind. Other wise I believe this is a good solution for a peaceful compromise.

Best wishes!


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by The Matt, posted 09-10-2007 6:58 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 4 by AdminPD, posted 09-10-2007 7:19 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 5 by bluegenes, posted 09-10-2007 7:49 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 10:10 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 09-10-2007 10:27 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 10:30 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 09-10-2007 10:41 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2007 4:15 PM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Ihategod, posted 09-11-2007 12:35 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 12:59 AM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2007 6:59 PM Utrimque has not yet responded
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 09-12-2007 9:13 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Message 2 of 58 (420902)
09-10-2007 6:47 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
The Matt
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 99
From: U.K.
Joined: 06-07-2007


Message 3 of 58 (420904)
09-10-2007 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
09-09-2007 2:33 PM


It's not a new idea. I've spoken to people before that think God just set the universe in motion pretty much like you describe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 58 (420907)
09-10-2007 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
09-09-2007 2:33 PM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome Utrimque,

Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure.

As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior. Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Abide by the Forum Guidelines and you will be a welcome addition.

In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.

Please direct any questions or comments you may have concerning this post to the Moderation Thread.

Again, welcome and fruitful debating. Purple


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    bluegenes
    Member (Idle past 556 days)
    Posts: 3119
    From: U.K.
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 5 of 58 (420910)
    09-10-2007 7:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    Utrimque writes:

    Has anyone ever considered the fact that neither evolution or creationism actually contradict?

    Well, yes. Hundreds of millions of people, probably, including all those theists who accept the theory of evolution as a strong scientific theory. It's been taught for generations in both Anglican and Catholic schools in my country, for example.

    You're describing the kind of creator God that most scientists who are also theists (Christian or otherwise) believe in.

    Amongst theists, it's only really Biblical literalists and others (like the I.D. movement which wants to see evidence of a "hands-on" interventionist God) who object to the idea of a God who creates via evolution.

    That's why Evolution versus Creation, with the terms as commonly used on this site, is confusing, because some evolutionists are also creationists. Creationism, as used here, means belief in an interventionist, direct creator/intelligent designer. Evolutionism, as used here, is the view of those who think that life evolved according to the laws of the universe, whether they believe those laws were made by God(s) or not.

    Your idea has also occurred to many of us non-theists, as well!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    crashfrog
    Inactive Member


    Message 6 of 58 (420917)
    09-10-2007 10:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    The problem with your "compromise" is that there's no such thing as God.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    Chiroptera
    Member (Idle past 14 days)
    Posts: 6531
    From: Oklahoma
    Joined: 09-28-2003


    Message 7 of 58 (420920)
    09-10-2007 10:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    Ah. I see the problem.
    This in mind: unless you believe that the earth jumped from the head of god fully formed, that the laws of the universe are subject to sudden change (i.e. 2+2=5 or fluctuating gravity), that the entire earth (including New Zealand) was covered by water, that a very small boat held every life form on earth for a month and a half with out losing any thing, that the entire human race was developed from several Jewish people on the so said boat (every one else died, didn't they?), or that George Bush is the new son of god (a select five of you out there) then their is no possible way this could work and I don't think I could change your mind. Other wise I believe this is a good solution for a peaceful compromise.

    But these are the troublemakers, the very ones who are the source of the conflict. If the proposed solution isn't accepted by one of the sides to the conflict (and the one making all the noise and fuss at that!), then we don't have a compromise.


    I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 8 of 58 (420922)
    09-10-2007 10:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    Theistic Evolution
    Your idea is actually pretty common.

    In the words of the Clergy Project, a document currently signed and endorsed by almost 11,000 US Christian Clergy:

    We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.

    As a Christian though, the problem comes when you say:

    Utrimque writes:

    Couldn't god use evolution, knowing that humans would be created as a result?

    If humans were a goal of the god you describe, the god you describe appears terribly inefficient and inept.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2007 3:33 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16237
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 9 of 58 (420925)
    09-10-2007 10:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    Utrimque writes:

    This in mind: unless you believe that the earth jumped from the head of god fully formed, that the laws of the universe are subject to sudden change (i.e. 2+2=5 or fluctuating gravity)....

    That's exactly what some creationists believe.

    The point of young-earth creationism is not to "explain" anything. It's to oppose science and a "naturalistic worldview". These are the same people who believed in a flat earth and a geocentric universe. They hounded Galileo to death for looking through his telescope, not for what he saw.

    There's no compromising with such people. They'll always be fanatics - about one thing or another.


    “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 16085
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 10.0


    Message 10 of 58 (420986)
    09-10-2007 3:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jar
    09-10-2007 10:30 AM


    Re: Theistic Evolution
    If humans were a goal of the god you describe, the god you describe appears terribly inefficient and inept.

    And if this week was one of God's goals, then all the preceding weeks would be terribly inefficient and inept, proving that god created the Earth last Thursday.

    I told you, but would you listen?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 10:30 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 16085
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 10.0


    Message 11 of 58 (420997)
    09-10-2007 4:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    "I do not detract from God. Everything that is, is from him, and because of him. But [nature] is not confused and without system, and so far as human knowledge has progressed it should be given a hearing. Only when it fails utterly should there be recourse to God." - Adelard of Bath

    "Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances ... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, On The Literal Interpretation of Genesis

    This in mind: unless you believe that the earth jumped from the head of god fully formed, that the laws of the universe are subject to sudden change (i.e. 2+2=5 or fluctuating gravity), that the entire earth (including New Zealand) was covered by water, that a very small boat held every life form on earth for a month and a half with out losing any thing, that the entire human race was developed from several Jewish people on the so said boat (every one else died, didn't they?)

    And there's your problem right there.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    Utrimque
    Junior Member (Idle past 4120 days)
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 09-09-2007


    Message 12 of 58 (421056)
    09-10-2007 10:06 PM


    Theistic Evolution: I like the sound of it!
    Oh wonderful!
    I'm glad that this isn't a new idea because it seems so simple!

    Re: crashfrog
    This is for the purpose of showing that the two are not incompatible, not that there is a god (however much I would hope otherwise), so that it is less proving god rather than proving a point.

    Re: Dr Adequate
    Your thinking style is so western! In the eastern philosophy the journey (however imperfect it is) is just as important as the ending. As well as the fact that theoretically if god didn't want an imperfect step he would not give us the chance to sin and turn away from him, be thankful that you are given a choice! (also humans are very stupidly designed, who puts the optic nerve in backwards? I personally think god would have done a better job.)
    edit: if this applies to what you where talking about then take as written, but feel as if you are trying to say something different, ignore this Re and don't randomly put quotes in and expect me to read your mind! (mine is in large print, small words, and lots of pictures!)
    edit edit: also make it clear who you are talking about, I'm assuming that your quotes deal with me; but i still can make out whether they are saying 'good job!' or 'you idiot!'. (I like context!)

    Edited by Utrimque, : Possible Misinterpretation

    Edited by Utrimque, : No reason given.


        
    Utrimque
    Junior Member (Idle past 4120 days)
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 09-09-2007


    Message 13 of 58 (421060)
    09-10-2007 10:20 PM


    The Dreaded Double Post!!!
    Just as a reminder: I have wonderful insight and thinking, but can read between the lines like a two year old! Make things clear!

    I.E. in regards to so-and-so's statement. . . (this would help a lot!)


    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 10:27 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 14 of 58 (421061)
    09-10-2007 10:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Utrimque
    09-10-2007 10:20 PM


    Re: The Dreaded Double Post!!!
    hint

    when you reply there are two buttons. Lower right reply button links to the message you are replying to. Lower left button is a general reply button.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Utrimque, posted 09-10-2007 10:20 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

      
    Ihategod
    Member (Idle past 4108 days)
    Posts: 235
    Joined: 08-15-2007


    Message 15 of 58 (421098)
    09-11-2007 12:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Utrimque
    09-09-2007 2:33 PM


    SICKO
    What kind of sick god would use evolution as a mechanism for developing spiritual creatures? Or for the less metaphysic, natural creatures?

    I'll tell you: A sick perverted god who enjoys suffering and death and if it is true get ready for the fire cuz we're goin' ta burn!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Utrimque, posted 09-09-2007 2:33 PM Utrimque has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2007 5:47 PM Ihategod has responded

      
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