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Author Topic:   Question.... (Processes of Logic)
Prancin
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 210 (39028)
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Question...
NOTE ADDED 5/11/03: BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE DISCUSSION, on 5/11/03 the title of this topic was changed from "Question...." to what I hope is the better "Question.... (Processes of Logic)" - Adminnemooseus.
-----
Why do Evolutionists sometimes get uptight and overly defensive when you ask harder questions concerning creation and God?
Do Evolutionists believe...
Where is Heaven, if there is one? Is there a Hell?
Does some type of god rate a mention anywhere?
[This message has been edited by Prancin, 05-05-2003]
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-11-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Mike Holland, posted 05-05-2003 6:53 PM Prancin has not replied
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2003 10:02 PM Prancin has not replied
 Message 4 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-06-2003 12:19 AM Prancin has not replied
 Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-06-2003 12:28 AM Prancin has not replied
 Message 6 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-06-2003 12:38 AM Prancin has not replied

Mike Holland
Member (Idle past 483 days)
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 2 of 210 (39029)
05-05-2003 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prancin
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Re: Question...
Hello Prancin,
These questions have nothing to do with evolution. While many evolutionists would ask 'Where is the evidence?', many others are Christians or Buddhists or Muslims, etc, and follow the beliefs of their religion without seeing any conflict with evolution.
Essentially, the only ones with a problem with evolution are the fundamentalists, who believe the Bible (or Koran) literally, word for word, and insist on a 6-day creation and the truth of the Adam and Eve story.
Mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prancin, posted 05-05-2003 6:35 PM Prancin has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 210 (39040)
05-05-2003 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prancin
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Re: Question...
Evolutionists may get uptight when you ask these things because the clear implication is that you think all evolutionists are atheists. This is not the case, as shown by the large number of theistic evolutionists here on this board.
That said, I am an atheist, and have no trouble with your questions:
Where is Heaven, if there is one? Is there a Hell?
Neither place exists. If conciousness continues after this life, there's no way to test it. If it does continue, my own personal belief is that it does so in a way incomprehesible to living people. So it's hardly fruitful to try and talk about it. This life is the one where we see results, so it is this life to be concerned with, not the next.
Does some type of god rate a mention anywhere?
From a psychological perspective, religion (gods, etc) is very interesting indeed. Evolution has equipped the mind to come to conclusions based on scarce or absent information. I believe that this gives rise to supernatural, superstitious belief.
Is there evidence for the actions of a god in this universe? I don't believe so - at least, not the kind of god that would be at all moral or intelligent (and worthy of worship). Rather, the state of the universe is one of "pitiless indifference" as Dawkins puts it. What kind of god would allow such a state?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-05-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Prancin, posted 05-05-2003 6:35 PM Prancin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 6:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 210 (39048)
05-06-2003 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prancin
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Re: Question...
Hi Pracin,
I'm an evolutionary creationist (I prefer this over theistic evolutionist)... and no I don't get uptight when you ask me questions about God. Go ahead shoot.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 210 (39049)
05-06-2003 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prancin
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Re: Question...
Where is Heaven, if there is one?
I actually think heaven will be on Earth in a more corporeal version than we might expect.
Is there a Hell?
I have heard a lot either way. There is seemingly unmistakable rhetoric in the Bible saying things like 'lake of fire' etc. but, on the other hand the actual Hebrew word for hell is the name of a place outside of Jerusalem where the Jews burnt their trash. Is it a metaphor? Who knows, I sure don't. The way I look at it, I'll be spending more time in heaven than the alternative so it doesn't matter much.
Does some type of god rate a mention anywhere?
By all means, just don't go looking for physical evidence to prove his existance.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 210 (39050)
05-06-2003 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Prancin
05-05-2003 6:35 PM


Re: Question...
by the way... my answer to crash and his kin about God is here
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 210 (39114)
05-06-2003 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
05-05-2003 10:02 PM


Re: Question...
'Neither place exists. If conciousness continues after this life, there's no way to test it.'
this is simply your opinion though. when you say neither place exists
you can't know that for sure unless you have been dead
Evolution has equipped the mind to come to conclusions based on scarce or absent information. I believe that this gives rise to supernatural, superstitious belief.
are you suggesting evolution has a mind of its own , and why would it equip the mind with conclusions which are scarce or absent what purpose would that surve in evolution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2003 10:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-06-2003 6:25 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2003 10:52 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 210 (39117)
05-06-2003 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 6:09 PM


Re: Question...
quote:
this is simply your opinion though. when you say neither place exists you can't know that for sure unless you have been dead
Here's a better way of phrasing it.
About ten minutes after death, electrical activity in the brain ceases. After that, the body is essentially a bag of meat.
There's nothing to indicate that anything else happens at all. So why should Heaven or Hell even be entertained as more than an idle musing?
------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 6:09 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 6:50 PM Dan Carroll has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 210 (39120)
05-06-2003 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dan Carroll
05-06-2003 6:25 PM


Re: Question...
'There's nothing to indicate that anything else happens at all. So why should Heaven or Hell even be entertained as more than an idle musing?'
what about near death experiences ?
also , is not the life more than the body , just because scientists can't trace the soul doesn't mean you should dismiss the possibilities,after all death is still one of the great mysteries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-06-2003 6:25 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by wj, posted 05-06-2003 7:25 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 05-06-2003 8:05 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 18 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-06-2003 11:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied

wj
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 210 (39125)
05-06-2003 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 6:50 PM


Re: Question...
Mike the wiz, feel free to believe anything you want to. But don't expect to convince anyone that your beiefs are correct or even reasonable if you cannot provide supporting evidence. Your evidence for a soul is? Your evidence for the existence of a heaven is? Your evidence for the existence of a hell is?
The current evidence suggests that "near death experiences" are a comon post-event perception of the experience of oxygen starvation to the brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 6:50 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 7:33 PM wj has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 210 (39128)
05-06-2003 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by wj
05-06-2003 7:25 PM


Re: Question...
'Mike the wiz, feel free to believe anything you want to. But don't expect to convince anyone that your beiefs are correct or even reasonable if you cannot provide supporting evidence. Your evidence for a soul is? Your evidence for the existence of a heaven is? Your evidence for the existence of a hell is?'
i cannot offer any evidence to you wj , i am sorry if i seemed to impose my beliefs on you , this is not my intention , i simply dont think crashfrog should impose his belief that there is no heaven or hell , like he knows something i dont.
as for n.d.e's i have no evidence , but i have heard many cases , and there is surely more to them than your little scientific explanation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by wj, posted 05-06-2003 7:25 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by wj, posted 05-06-2003 7:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

wj
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 210 (39132)
05-06-2003 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 7:33 PM


Re: Question...
Mike the wiz, I'm sure that Crashfrog's belief that heaven and hell do not exist is more firmly and logically founded than you own personal belief. The lack of evidence for existence of heaven and hell or any other theological imagined place means that he does not find it necessary to believe in the existence of such places. I am similarly disposed to not believe in the existence of the restaurant at the end of the universe because of the lack of evidence for its existence. And the rather high price for entrees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 7:33 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 05-06-2003 8:05 PM wj has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 210 (39134)
05-06-2003 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 6:50 PM


dismissing
just because scientists can't trace the soul doesn't mean you should dismiss
I can replace "soul" in the above with anything, anything at all. Therefore there is no way to dismiss anything. Therefore we have to spend mental effort (and more resources) persuing everything. Without a filter to decide what is worth some effort you will waste time and resources on wild goose chases.
Who says demons don't cause disease --- you can't dismiss it. Who says voodoo isn't how someone was killed, you can't dismiss it. and so on forever with no progress being made.

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 14 of 210 (39135)
05-06-2003 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by wj
05-06-2003 7:58 PM


Re: Question...
well thats the difference isn't it, you seek evidence and i dont.
And exactly what is the proof or evidence against heaven and hell, can you disprove these ?
'And the rather high price for entrees.'
what do you mean by this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by wj, posted 05-06-2003 7:58 PM wj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by wj, posted 05-06-2003 10:46 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 05-06-2003 10:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

wj
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 210 (39156)
05-06-2003 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
05-06-2003 8:05 PM


Re: Question...
quote:
'And the rather high price for entrees.'
what do you mean by this?
entrees = (plural form of) dish served before the main course at a restaurant.
price = money or other consideration for which a thing is bought or sold.
high = of great or specified upward extent. Adjective modifying the noun "price".
Context: the statement refers to the preceding sentence and the allusion to a restaurant. It was offered as an additional reason to not believe in the existence of a restaurant at the end of the universe. However it offers a paradox because knowledge of the existence of entrees, and their price, from an argued non-existent restaurant would be evidence for the existence of such a restaurant. Therefore the evidence offered is contrary to the position which it was given as support for.
In summary, it was a joke.
So, take up the challenge of providing the proof or evidence against the existence of the restaurant at the end of the universe. If evidence or proof is of no interest to you, why don't you also believe in the restaurant at the end of the universe? I have told you about it, do you believe it exists?

This message is a reply to:
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