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Author Topic:   Entropy, and the Existence of GOD.
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 8 (258677)
11-10-2005 8:12 PM


Thomas Aquinas' philosophy in regards to the existence of God.
Five proofs for the existence of God
Aquinas shows five "ways" to indicate the existence of God, some of which are developed in detail in his Summa Contra Gentiles.
The first way
(Prime Mover) "It is clear that there are in this world things which are moved. Now, every object which is moved receives that movement from another. If the motor is itself moved, there must be another motor moving it, and after that yet another, and so on. But it is impossible to go on indefinitely, for then there would be no first motor at all, and consequently no movement" ("Contra Gentiles," ii. 33). This proof, like much of Thomas Aquinas's thought, is taken from Aristotle, whose "unmoved mover" forms the first recorded example of the cosmological argument for God's existence.
The second way
"We discern in all sensible things a certain chain of efficient causes. We find, however, nothing which is its own efficient cause, for that cause would then be anterior to itself. On the other side, it is impossible to ascend from cause to cause indefinitely in the series of efficient causes....There must therefore exist one self-sufficient, efficient cause, and that is God" ("Contra Gent." i. 22).
The third way
"We find in nature things which may be and may not be, since there are some who are born and others who die; they consequently can exist or not exist. But it is impossible that such things should live for ever, for there is nothing which may be as well as not be at one time. Thus if all beings need not have existed, there must have been a time in which nothing existed. But, in that case, nothing would exist now; for that which does not exist can not receive life but from one who exists; . . . there must therefore be in nature a necessarily existent being."
The fourth way
Any category has its degrees, such as good and better, warm and warmer. Each also has one thing that's the ultimate of that measure, like good and "best", warm and "hottest". And whatever is the most of that category is the source of that category, as fire (or, in modern terms, energy itself) is the source of heat, and God must therefore be the source of goodness.
The fifth way
Everything, sentient or otherwise, progresses in an orderly way. Planets move in their orbits, light breaks from and combines into its spectrum, et cetera. Reality has a natural order, which could not have come from nothing, yet which precedes mere humans.
Some believe that the Fifth Way is equivalent to what is now called Intelligent Design. However, this is not an accurate presentation of Aquinas' thought, and is subject to the Cosmogonical Fallacy.
-Wikipedia.org.
These proofs, are logical analysis using reasoning, to prove God's existence, they make a great deal of sense, and I wonder about Atheism, and how it counteracts such theories.
But the main point is, that without God, there is nothing to live for. Human Life would be meaningless. What is it that we live for, and strive to become, and why do we show passion for life?
I believe that life, is a precursor to an eternal life to come. But is there meaning beyond the thought of this afterlife, is there meaning for living without the idea of a Divine Being?
(Not to strengthen my beliefs, justified with wonder, and debate.)
(If not enough is given, just close it, maybe passion for debate, and discussion has left me.)
This message has been edited by prophex, 11-10-2005 08:36 PM

well sure as planets come, i know that they end
and if i'm here when they happens, will you promise me this my friend?
please bury me with it
i just don't need none of that mad max bullshit

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-10-2005 8:30 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminPhat, posted 11-11-2005 1:53 AM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 11-11-2005 12:33 PM joshua221 has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 8 (258681)
11-10-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
11-10-2005 8:12 PM


Charlie, you have two seperate and unrelated topics there. If I understand what you're talking about you have some question related to the Laws of Thermodynamics. There is a second, philosophical argument.
I don't want to see you get swamped with just about everyone refuting either and both of those and we really need to have them in two different threads.
Would you be willing to pick one of the subjects and have a Great Debate with one opponent of your choice, so that it won't become overwhelming.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 11-10-2005 8:12 PM joshua221 has not replied

    AdminPhat
    Inactive Member


    Message 3 of 8 (258762)
    11-11-2005 1:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
    11-10-2005 8:12 PM


    I will have a great debate with you, Charlie...even though i agree with much of what you profess, I am more than capable of playing devils advicate in order to have such a debate...what say we give it a go? (You gotta pick either one topic or the other, as Jar suggests.)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 11-10-2005 8:12 PM joshua221 has not replied

    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 4 of 8 (258841)
    11-11-2005 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
    11-10-2005 8:12 PM


    possible partner for Aquinas
    sidelined has volunteered to discuss this with you in a Great Debate if you would like.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 11-10-2005 8:12 PM joshua221 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by joshua221, posted 11-12-2005 11:38 AM AdminJar has replied

    joshua221 
    Inactive Member


    Message 5 of 8 (259080)
    11-12-2005 11:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
    11-11-2005 12:33 PM


    Re: possible partner for Aquinas
    Alright, I'll reply when I have the time, I'm really busy right now. Just got back from NYC, and I hate NYC. The food was bad where we went, the teacher brought us to the worst spots, I hate the chaos, and all the people made me feel small. Hopefully, we can do this, but I just can't right now, I made the thread thinking that I could.

    well sure as planets come, i know that they end
    and if i'm here when they happens, will you promise me this my friend?
    please bury me with it
    i just don't need none of that mad max bullshit

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 11-11-2005 12:33 PM AdminJar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by AdminJar, posted 11-12-2005 11:43 AM joshua221 has replied

    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 6 of 8 (259081)
    11-12-2005 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
    11-12-2005 11:38 AM


    Re: possible partner for Aquinas
    Okay, I'll promote the initial message to Great Debates. sidelined says he too may be slow responding because he expects to be without computer for about a week.
    Would you like Phat to moderate the discussion?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by joshua221, posted 11-12-2005 11:38 AM joshua221 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by joshua221, posted 11-12-2005 1:09 PM AdminJar has replied

    joshua221 
    Inactive Member


    Message 7 of 8 (259093)
    11-12-2005 1:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by AdminJar
    11-12-2005 11:43 AM


    Re: possible partner for Aquinas
    iight

    well sure as planets come, i know that they end
    and if i'm here when they happens, will you promise me this my friend?
    please bury me with it
    i just don't need none of that mad max bullshit

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by AdminJar, posted 11-12-2005 11:43 AM AdminJar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by AdminJar, posted 11-12-2005 1:25 PM joshua221 has not replied

    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 8 of 8 (259103)
    11-12-2005 1:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by joshua221
    11-12-2005 1:09 PM


    Re: possible partner for Aquinas
    I'll assume that means "Right".
    So sidelined is your partner in the discussion and Phat will be asked to take the point in moderation.
    Closing this.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by joshua221, posted 11-12-2005 1:09 PM joshua221 has not replied

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