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Author Topic:   Alternative Mechanisms of Evolution ?
Benton
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 5 (237728)
08-27-2005 3:21 PM


I've been thinking about evolution a lot lately, as the natural selection theory (while certainly true) does not jive with my mathematical intution. Of course, my intuition could be wrong, but I've been considering alternate ideas that could hopefully provide a theoretical framework to start the process of observation, hypothesis, etc.
I'd appreciate thoughts on where my ignorance might be misleading me, etc., and how these ideas have been contemplated by more qualified evolutionary thinkers.
1. An Alternative View of "Intelligence" in Nature
This is really more of a philosophical explaination of my biases than a real point...
One of the things that bothers me about the ID concept is that I'm unclear what exactly is meant by "intelligence". It seems to me to be presently more of a philosophical concept as opposed to an empirical one.
That being said, I'm manifestly bias against materialism. While I don't have "faith" in the notion, I tend to think that there is some type "mind" that is an important mystery to be understood in science. Of course intelligence could just be a function of matter, but I'm inclined to believe the evidence points in another direction.
I'm not arguing that I have a precise definition of "mind". I view it as sort of an umbrella term of unknowns covering consciousness, intelligence, choice and powers of observation.
But it seems there is something there that hasn't been empirically defined in a way that it can be well studied by existing science. This could be a limitation of our capabilities, but I'm inclined to believe it is more a limitation of observation and definition.
It seems most would agree that building a bridge is an example of "intelligent design"...But what about a primitive shelter? Or a beaver damn? Or a bird's nest? What about the reponse when stepping on an ant hill? Certainly an obective inquiry of intelligence would recognize these as potentially intelligent acts?
Which brings me to a basic premise. While I don't claim to have the answer, it appears obvious that consciousness exists, however a clear explaination of it, let alone a material one seems elusive. I am inclined to think that "mind" exists in nature just as matter does. Indeed, there would be no science without observation, and quantum physics has unveiled links between observation and matter.
My hunch is that mind and matter are linked like space-time, and that it is likely that one does not really exist independently of the other.
This all relates to a flaw that strikes me of ID theory. It seems we have yet to empirically prove a concept of intelligence, consciousness, mind, etc. It seems like understanding this concept in more empirical detail would be the starting point of examining how it might interact with nature.
It seems like people are looking for "divine" intelligence, rather than the more mundane examples of intelligence that would really better our understanding of the concepts.
It also strikes me that there is an inherent bias (probably associated with the individual awareness that consciousness implies) whereby we assume that mind is either limited to individual organisms or to God.
My alternative whereby mind is an inherent quality of nature is a fairly abstract and vague concept, and I'll try not to delve into philosphy much more...Other than to say, I think empirically identifying "mind" will be a major revolution in science.
2. Causation and Reproductive Genetics
I don't know much about genetics, but it strikes me that the prevailing view is that an organism produces genetic material by chance, according to existing DNA. Is this idea of chance based on evidence, or on assumption?
It seems like it was Baker and Bellis who provided evidence that the amount of sperm a man ejaculates is based not on when he last ejaculated, but how long his separation from his lover was. It seems like this would be demonstrative that - at some level - organisms produce reproductive material in response to environmental stimulus, rather than just by chance.
How do we know that an organism couldn't produce allele frequencies or even mutations in response to environmental stimulus?
Indeed, if it were possible for organisms to evolve this capability, then it is almost certainly an advantage that would be present in many modern species - particularly those who experience longer gaps between generations.
An organism that produced genetics that were most likely to survive with changing conditions would be adaptable at a far greater rate than one that relied on the slow, random process of mutation and natural selection.
This would allow for much more rapid adaptation, and if it were possible to develop, it would seem very likely that it is present today.
3. Social Selection
When I consider the recent history of primitive cultures, and all I've seen, I'm inclined to think that there is an important aspect of hominid evolution that I've never seen discussed.
I'll call this "social selection", but it derives from the recognition of tribalism seems a natural state for primitive men on various continents.
In Africa, I've seen morphological differences between tribes that inhabit the same area. This was also common in North America hundreds of years ago. Sure, it's possible that this is due to migration.
But it also seems likely that tribalism could lead to a form of social and reproductive isolation that could potentially ultimately result in speciation.
It seems that tribes could adopt very different patterns of behavior and sexual selection (and arguably artificial selection) that drive this change independent of natural selection.
It also strikes me that the social nature of tribalism is perhaps not limited to hominids, but rather a natural occurrance in many species...From whale pods, to wolf packs, to caribou herds, it seems social group idenitification and isolation is fairly common in nature.
That being the case, could this type of social isolation combined with diverging behaviors and perhaps sexual selection be a driver of speciation independent of any real physical isolation? Could this be an explaination for speciation in marine life that has less real potential of physical isolation?
4. Inheritence of Instincts
This brings me to another hunch that's related to the others. I'm not totally clear on what instincts are or are supposed to be.
But my inclination is to beleive that instincts, or behaviors, or consciouss reaction - while certainly inherited in some sense - is not limited to inheritance via generational mortality.
Indeed, the divergence of tribes, leading to difference customs and sexual selection would arguably be demonstrative that instincts are not purely inherited. Of course, you could argue that hominids are unique, but one of my premises is that we're subject to the same evolutionary forces as other species. So what could be true for us (certainly in the stone age sense) could be true for them as well.
In other words, why wouldn't it be possible for instincts and/or behaviors, and/or thought processes of group A within a species that to diverge from group B that has a different recognized group identity? And if these instincts could diverge, couldn't it lead to a bunch of different sexual and other behaviors that could promote different genetics?
All of these ideas are all kind of interrelated, but it would seem that they could open up new avenues for evolutionary mechanisms.
I would appreciate more informed thoughts on the matter.
Thanks!
- Benton

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminBen, posted 08-28-2005 8:44 PM Benton has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminRandman, posted 11-17-2005 9:40 PM Benton has not replied
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 11-19-2005 12:47 PM Benton has not replied
 Message 5 by AdminPhat, posted 11-25-2005 8:19 AM Benton has not replied

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 5 (238103)
08-28-2005 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Benton
08-27-2005 3:21 PM


Hey Benton, welcome to EVC!
As it is, the different points in your post are only loosely related, and the points need to be cleared up a bit before being released. You're bringing up interesting points, so so let's try and shape it up a bit and get this discussion started. Here's some "helpful suggestions" that should help lead things to a focused discussion.
You list 4 different points, and they would be best separated into 4 separate threads. I would strongly suggest you choose one of them to post now and, after getting used to discussion here and seeing how much time it takes when you get involved, submit the others at a later time.
I'll give you comments on all of them. Please reply to this post with a revised version of ONE of your points, and we can promote that as a focused topic. Please also change the title of this thread (by clicking "edit" on Post #1) to reflect the focused subject that you choose.
Thanks, and again, welcome to EVC!
------
Item 1
  • In the first half of this point, you are basically rambling. I find that it really obscures your thesis, which seems to be "My hunch is that mind and matter are linked like space-time, and that it is likely that one does not really exist independently of the other." You don't get to that until more than halfway through your post. Try and remove most of the fluff. You can post it at a later time or, if you feel it's very important to developing your thesis, I would suggest you explain your thesis first, then at the end of the post explain your philosophical motivations.
  • Is there any way you can be more specific about this thesis? It's awfully vague. Do you have any ideas how the two might be linked?
  • This doesn't sound like a science topic to me, but more like philosophy. Take a look at the list of forums and think about where you'd like it to appear. Right now I would suggest "Faith and Belief". If you want this to be an evidence-based science thread, rather than philosophical musings, then you'll need to do major cleanup and really direct exactly the line of investigation you want to follow.
Item 2
  • You say,
    How do we know that an organism couldn't produce allele frequencies or even mutations in response to environmental stimulus?
    If you think somebody is saying that an organism couldn't do this, then you should provide some kind of reference to who is saying this. If you're not sure, then you should simply ask "Is it possible?" You're setting up a conflict with an unnnamed source / unnamed people; you need to make that clear or just make it a straight-up question.
Item 3
  • I think this is a pretty directed post asking an interesting question. I don't think it needs any change.
Item 4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Benton, posted 08-27-2005 3:21 PM Benton has not replied

AdminRandman
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 5 (260752)
11-17-2005 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Benton
08-27-2005 3:21 PM


Benton?
Benton, I think your thread here has real promise. Are you still interested in pursuing it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Benton, posted 08-27-2005 3:21 PM Benton has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 5 (261275)
11-19-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Benton
08-27-2005 3:21 PM


another request for your consideration
As others have suggested, while your Original Post seems to warrant a thread, it contains way too many different thoughts to make it viable. I too think that the thrid point you made is clear and concise. The others though need additional work to narrow the focus and should be separate threads.
If you can edit your OP and then post a response to any one of us here, we will see about getting this promoted.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Benton, posted 08-27-2005 3:21 PM Benton has not replied

    AdminPhat
    Inactive Member


    Message 5 of 5 (263044)
    11-25-2005 8:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Benton
    08-27-2005 3:21 PM


    Benton? Still interested?
    Benton writes:
    I would appreciate more informed thoughts on the matter.
    Hi, Benton. All of us gave our opinions, and I agree with Ben that your PNT (Proposed New Topic) could be edited and revised a bit.
    If you are still interested in promoting it, make a few changes in it to make it a bit less wordy and more concise. Ben is a smart lad and he gave his opinion in message #2, But I'm all for you making it just a wee bit shorter and focus on one main idea.
    Its a bit like browsing books in a bookstore....if one scans the introduction, it should be short and clear and summerize the book for the consumer. At EvC, our members browse the topics and are more likely to answer a simple question rather than a detailed thesis.
    If you are still interested, edit a bit and let us know when you are ready again by...say...December 1st or so. Thanks.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Benton, posted 08-27-2005 3:21 PM Benton has not replied

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