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Author Topic:   COSMOLOGY
jchardy
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 1 of 159 (489179)
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


QUESTION:
From: jchardy area929@msn.com, Seabeck, WA
Evidence of the red shift indicates that all large (galactic) components are "uniformly" accelerating away from "us" (our galaxy) in a manner directly proportional to their "distance" from us. If this is so and:
IF:
--the inflationary model of expansion of the Universe is true
AND IF:
--the universe is flat as currently proposed
THEN HOW DO WE ACCOUNT FOR:
--the evidence that numerous galactic collisions have, are or imminently will occur (including that of the collision of the Andromeda with our own Milky Way)??
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 11-24-2008 7:14 PM jchardy has responded
 Message 4 by cavediver, posted 11-24-2008 7:45 PM jchardy has responded
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 11-24-2008 9:34 PM jchardy has responded
 Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-24-2008 10:19 PM jchardy has not yet responded
 Message 8 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-24-2008 10:38 PM jchardy has not yet responded
 Message 26 by V-Bird, posted 11-25-2008 8:33 AM jchardy has responded

    
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 159 (489184)
11-24-2008 7:10 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 159 (489186)
11-24-2008 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jchardy
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


Objects with mass are gravitationally attracted to one another. From time to time they get close enough to collide.

I'm afraid that before I see anything anomalous that needs to be explained, you're going to have to be more clear about what you think is anomalous and why.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 5:34 PM jchardy has responded

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 4 of 159 (489187)
11-24-2008 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jchardy
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


THEN HOW DO WE ACCOUNT FOR:
--the evidence that numerous galactic collisions have, are or imminently will occur (including that of the collision of the Andromeda with our own Milky Way)??

The weatherman tells me the wind is blowing from the east today. How does he reconcile that with the fact that outside, I can see leaves being blown in all directions?

Galaxies are not large components, galaxies are certainly not "uniformly" accelerating away, nor are all galaxies accelerating "away", and when we refer to "us" in terms of Universal expansion, we are not refering to merely our Galaxy.

Furthermore, the "inflationary model" has nothing to do with your point. The inflationary model is relevant in the first few seconds of the expansion. We're somewhat past that stage now...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 5:34 PM jchardy has responded

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8837
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 159 (489189)
11-24-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jchardy
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


An analogy
Let's try this:

Take a large sheet of elastic material. It can stretch indefinitely.

It starts off 1 yard on each side. And then is pulled on so it stretches evenly in all directions at 1 foot every 10 seconds.

Now let's put a whole bunch of ants on it. If they stand still they get farther and farther apart. If Ant Abe is on one side of the sheet and Ant Babe is on the other they are getting 2 feet further apart every 10 seconds. That is probably faster than an Ant can walk, eh?

But Ant Tom and Ant Bob are near each other on the sheet. They are not getting farther apart very fast at all. Perhaps very slowly. If they are only 6 inches apart they are 'receding' from each other at only about 4 inches in 10 seconds.

The motion of the ants because of the stretching of the sheet if like the galaxies being moved farther apart by the expansion of space. The galaxies and they ants are NOT moving at all. They are staying at the same place on the sheet or the same place in space. However, the places they are "staying" are being moved farther apart.

Now let's have the ants move around on the sheet. This is like the galaxies actually moving around in space. Now if two ants aren't too far apart they could move toward each other and collide. Likewise two galaxies could happen to collide if they were not too far apart.

As noted elsewhere a few million light years is "close" just like inches on our elastic sheet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 5:34 PM jchardy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 11:18 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1176 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 6 of 159 (489190)
11-24-2008 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jchardy
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


I think NosyNed pegged this phenomena pretty well.

Just a couple of more notes on the red/blue shift phenomena.

Out of the billions of galaxies in the observable universe only about 100 are truely blue shifted (some of the other galaxies that show blue shifts is actually that of their spiral arms that are rotating towards us). Most of these truly blue shifted galaxies are in our Local Group though there are some further out. The reason there are galaxies further away (such as in the Virgo cluster) that are blue shifted is that they are actually rotating around an axis and a few of there members are being swung around in our direction at very high speeds (1600 km/sec) surpassing the speed at which the cluster of galaxies is receding away from us (1100 km/sec).

This is not a simple phenomena to understand and there are many different factors we have to consider.

All in all the universe is expanding (Hubble's Constant), kind of like NosyNeds analogy of a rubber sheet or an expanding balloon with ants on it. Most of the ants are walking around slower than the balloon is expanding. However those close to our ant (the Milky Way) can walk fast enough in a small distance to overcome (blue shift) the expansion of the balloon (red shift). Hope this adds some light to this perplexing phenomena.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 5:34 PM jchardy has not yet responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3666 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 7 of 159 (489191)
11-24-2008 10:34 PM


Is the inflationary model of the universe true?
jchardy,

Evidence of the red shift indicates that all large (galactic) components are "uniformly" accelerating away from "us" (our galaxy) in a manner directly proportional to their "distance" from us.

When Hubble first discovered the redshift anomoly he knew this supported that the earth was in the center of the universe. However Hubbles an agnostic could not accept this due it supported the creationists big bang theory. So Hubble created a different big bang senerio explanation that every point in the universe is the center to explain the stretching of the heavens. Robert Gentry discusses the redshift an the stretching of the heavens in the discussion of the Center.

Setterfield explains how in the lab using water plasmas they can duplicate what you see happening in the universe on a small scale and explains how today water plasmas in the lab using water when cooled form all the elements suddenly.

enjoy,

jf

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Robert Gentry Questions the Hubble Redshift in the discussion of the Center of the Universe.

Center of the Universe

Quality Download Speed
Best 273K
Good 102K
So-So 24K

In depth discussion of Center of the Universe.

In three parts.
Quality Download Speed
Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Best 273K 273K 273K
Good 102K 102K 102K
So-So 24K 24K 24K

http://www.halos.com/videos/streaming-video.htm#cou

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Stretching the Heavens:
A New Cosmology
by Barry Setterfield

Video:

Broadband-only (Free) ~233 MB

http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/stretching_the_heavens.html

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-24-2008 10:56 PM johnfolton has responded
 Message 10 by subbie, posted 11-24-2008 11:11 PM johnfolton has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1176 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 8 of 159 (489192)
11-24-2008 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jchardy
11-24-2008 5:34 PM


From: jchardy area929@msn.com, Seabeck, WA
Evidence of the red shift indicates that all large (galactic) components are "uniformly" accelerating away from "us" (our galaxy) in a manner directly proportional to their "distance" from us. If this is so and:

IF:
--the inflationary model of expansion of the Universe is true

Do you have an alternate hypothsis that explains the the increase in redshift of galaxies in proportion to their distance away from us?

If so please indulge us, I am open to alternate explanations as long as they are scientific.


AND IF:
--the universe is flat as currently proposed

Again alternate hypothesis?

THEN HOW DO WE ACCOUNT FOR:
--the evidence that numerous galactic collisions have, are or imminently will occur (including that of the collision of the Andromeda with our own Milky Way)??

Basically if two or more galaxies are really close than their gravitation pull towards each other can temporarily overcome the outwards pull of expansion.

See my and NosyNeds previous posts about the blue shift phenomena.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jchardy, posted 11-24-2008 5:34 PM jchardy has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1176 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 9 of 159 (489193)
11-24-2008 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by johnfolton
11-24-2008 10:34 PM


Re: Is the inflationary model of the universe true?
Setterfield explains how in the lab using water plasmas they can duplicate what you see happening in the universe on a small scale and explains how today water plasmas in the lab using water when cooled form all the elements suddenly.

More pseudoscience and poppycock. How can "water plama" create all the elements suddenly. Please elaborate? Water plasma is just H2O with the electron stripped off and in a highly energetic state. It is still just H2O. How can that form all the elements in the periodic table?

And what does this have to do with the inflationary model of the universe?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by johnfolton, posted 11-24-2008 10:34 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by johnfolton, posted 11-24-2008 11:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded
 Message 92 by jchardy, posted 11-27-2008 12:23 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 159 (489194)
11-24-2008 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by johnfolton
11-24-2008 10:34 PM


Re: Is the inflationary model of the universe true?
quote:
When Hubble first discovered the redshift anomoly he knew this supported that the earth was in the center of the universe. However Hubbles an agnostic could not accept this due it supported the creationists big bang theory. So Hubble created a different big bang senerio explanation that every point in the universe is the center to explain the stretching of the heavens.

I must say, I'm impressed at the depth of your knowledge about the mental processes of a man who died 55 years ago (although candor compels me to to admit that my impression is tempered by your apparent near-ignorance of basic grammar and spelling). Do you have any evidence that these were in fact Hubble's actual mental processes? Or is this simply your self-serving take on what you'd like him to have thought?

Edited by subbie, : Tyop


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by johnfolton, posted 11-24-2008 10:34 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by johnfolton, posted 11-24-2008 11:31 PM subbie has responded

  
jchardy
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 11 of 159 (489195)
11-24-2008 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
11-24-2008 7:14 PM


COSMOLOGY/INFLATION/GALACTIC COLLISIONS
You stated: “Objects with mass are gravitationally attracted to one another. From time to time they get close enough to collide.
I'm afraid that before I see anything anomalous that needs to be explained, you're going to have to be more clear about what you think is anomalous and why.”
Thanks for your response but I needed more information and the best response I got was from NosyNed below. Very cogent.
JCHARDY
This message is a reply to:
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jchardy
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 12 of 159 (489196)
11-24-2008 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by cavediver
11-24-2008 7:45 PM


COSMOLOGY/INFLATION/GALACTIC COLLISIONS
You point out that: “The weatherman tells me the wind is blowing from the east today. How does he reconcile that with the fact that outside, I can see leaves being blown in all directions?” OK. That’s chaos. Is that the explanation? “S---it happens?” I’ll accept that. It does fit with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle which I thought was pretty exclusively a quantum concept. Not part of General relativity. Not part of “big picture” cosmology.
Then you say:
“Galaxies are not large components, galaxies are certainly not "uniformly" accelerating away, nor are all galaxies accelerating "away
Wait a minute! If Galaxies aren’t “large”, what is?! Furthermore, Hubble’s observations – subsequently confirmed—did indicate all galaxies accelerating “away” with their rate of acceleration “away” more or less directly proportional to their distance.
Then you say:
", and when we refer to "us" in terms of Universal expansion, we are not referring to merely our Galaxy.
But it is from “our galaxy” that we observe the universe. So our galaxy is “us” from our observational point of view.
Then you say:
Furthermore, the "inflationary model" has nothing to do with your point. The inflationary model is relevant in the first few seconds of the expansion. We're somewhat past that stage now...
Are you saying that the universe is no longer inflating? Expanding?
Thanks for your response but I needed more information and the best response I got was from NosyNed below.
JCHARDY
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by cavediver, posted 11-24-2008 7:45 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by cavediver, posted 11-25-2008 2:56 AM jchardy has responded

    
jchardy
Member (Idle past 2474 days)
Posts: 85
Joined: 11-24-2008


Message 13 of 159 (489197)
11-24-2008 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by NosyNed
11-24-2008 9:34 PM


Re: An analogy Cosmology/inflation/galactic collisions
. Dear NosyNed (from Canada): Your response was the best I have seen and it actually did clarify things. You wrote:
“Let's try this:
Take a large sheet of elastic material. It can stretch indefinitely.
It starts off 1 yard on each side. And then is pulled on so it stretches evenly in all directions at 1 foot every 10 seconds.
Now let's put a whole bunch of ants on it. If they stand still they get farther and farther apart. If Ant Abe is on one side of the sheet and Ant Babe is on the other they are getting 2 feet further apart every 10 seconds. That is probably faster than an Ant can walk, eh?
But Ant Tom and Ant Bob are near each other on the sheet. They are not getting farther apart very fast at all. Perhaps very slowly. If they are only 6 inches apart they are 'receding' from each other at only about 4 inches in 10 seconds.
The motion of the ants because of the stretching of the sheet if like the galaxies being moved farther apart by the expansion of space.”
So, by your analogy, I understand the following:
The stretching of the sheet is analogous to the expansion of the universe and the ants – analogous to galaxies – are being moved farther apart, and that movement apart is relative to their distance from each other.
(In reality) the ants (the galaxies) are NOT themselves moving at all. They remain in the same location on the sheet. As if they were a “self-contained star compartment” within space-time. However, the galaxies as a whole (or the places/locations which they are = the galactic “compartments”) -- are being moved farther apart.

“Now let's have the ants (the galaxies or “galactic star compartments”) move around on the sheet. This is like the galaxies actually moving around in space. Now if two ants aren't too far apart they could move toward each other and collide. Likewise two galaxies could happen to collide if they were not too far apart. As noted elsewhere a few million light years is "close" just like inches on our elastic sheet.”
This is an exceedingly good clarification. I do have a problem calling ”a few million light years” close. I could live with up to a half a million light years but I may have to accept this. Apparently inflationary pressures (the “Vacuum” energy or proposed “Higgs” or “Dark Energy”) is not a particularly powerful force. That makes sense. It is well dissipated at 14 Billion years – like the microwave background – and has little overall effect except by its residual inertia which, I surmise, is dependent on the total mass of the galaxies (star/mass compartments) initially influenced by the Big Bang. Thus chaos/chance and gravitational effects dominate in most of the universe and explains galactic collisions.

Thank you very, very much.
JC HARDY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 11-24-2008 9:34 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3666 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 14 of 159 (489199)
11-24-2008 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate
11-24-2008 10:56 PM


Re: Is the inflationary model of the universe true?
DevilsAdvocate,

More pseudoscience and poppycock. How can "water plama" create all the elements suddenly. Please elaborate? Water plasma is just H2O with the electron stripped off and in a highly energetic state. It is still just H2O. How can that form all the elements in the periodic table?

And what does this have to do with the inflationary model of the universe

Just watch the video to find the scientists name in respect to what sounds like tranmutation of the elements from a water plasma. You do understand the nobel prize winner Corentin Louis Kervran proving transmutation of potassium into calcium with low amounts of energy.

Enjoy,

jf

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-24-2008 10:56 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3666 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 15 of 159 (489200)
11-24-2008 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by subbie
11-24-2008 11:11 PM


Re: Is the inflationary model of the universe true?
subbie,

I must say, I'm impressed at the depth of your knowledge about the mental processes of a man who died 55 years ago (although candor compels me to to admit that my impression is tempered by your apparent near-ignorance of basic grammar and spelling). Do you have any evidence that these were in fact Hubble's actual mental processes? Or is this simply your self-serving take on what you'd like him to have thought?

After you watch the discussion video ask yourself the question is the earth the center of the universe or is every point the center of the universe. Its a known fact that Hubble was an agnostic. right?

Enjoy,

jf

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by subbie, posted 11-24-2008 11:11 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 11-24-2008 11:42 PM johnfolton has responded
 Message 19 by bluescat48, posted 11-25-2008 12:04 AM johnfolton has responded

  
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