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Author Topic:   Black holes collision
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5556 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 1 of 17 (470734)
06-12-2008 4:24 AM


What would happen in a collision of 2 differently sized black holes. Will the larger one consume the smaller? Could this give rise to a new big bang? What happens if the larger black hole consumes many smaller ones and becomes so large that it occupies a considerable portion of the universe?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Son Goku, posted 06-12-2008 9:24 AM Agobot has replied

  
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Message 2 of 17 (470745)
06-12-2008 9:05 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 17 (470747)
06-12-2008 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Agobot
06-12-2008 4:24 AM


Mundane response #1
Believe it or not, the answers to these questions are very straight forward and simple.
Will the larger one consume the smaller?
They coalesce into one larger hole. Although the area of the new hole is smaller than the sum of their individual areas.
Could this give rise to a new big bang?
No. In all numerical simulations of these collisions the holes simply coalesce.
What happens if the larger black hole consumes many smaller ones and becomes so large that it occupies a considerable portion of the universe?
That's impossible. Black Holes are actually very small. If, for instance, the Sun became a black hole it would only be the size of central Paris. Compare this with how massive the Sun actually is. Even if a black hole where extremely large, it would simply be an extremely large black hole, there'd be nothing new or exciting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Agobot, posted 06-12-2008 4:24 AM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 06-12-2008 10:49 AM Son Goku has replied
 Message 7 by Agobot, posted 06-12-2008 5:00 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 17 (470749)
06-12-2008 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Son Goku
06-12-2008 9:24 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
Son Goku writes:
Black Holes are actually very small
What about supermassive black holes in the center of galaxies?
Can Muse be wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Son Goku, posted 06-12-2008 9:24 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Son Goku, posted 06-12-2008 2:16 PM Larni has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2977 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 5 of 17 (470757)
06-12-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
06-12-2008 10:49 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
What about supermassive black holes in the center of galaxies?
They are larger than black holes and have an increase in solar mass and density.
Here's a wiki link, scroll down a bit you'll see the chart with the mass and sizes.
Black hole - Wikipedia

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 17 (470771)
06-12-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
06-12-2008 10:49 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
Although conventionally Muse is never wrong, even supermassive black are very small for their mass. The Milky Ways central hole is 3 million times more massive than the sun, but only 17 (ish) times as big.
The basic point is that black holes are certainly incapable of taking up a large portion of the universe in a realistic scenario.

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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5556 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 7 of 17 (470785)
06-12-2008 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Son Goku
06-12-2008 9:24 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
How would central Paris be considered zero-volume or infinitely small size? Or do you mean the event horizon of the black hole would be the size of central Paris?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Son Goku, posted 06-12-2008 9:24 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 17 (470788)
06-12-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Agobot
06-12-2008 5:00 PM


Re: Mundane response #1
How would central Paris be considered zero-volume or infinitely small size? Or do you mean the event horizon of the black hole would be the size of central Paris?
The diameter of the horizon would be the same as central Paris.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 17 (470789)
06-12-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Son Goku
06-12-2008 5:10 PM


Re: Mundane response #1
What is considered to be the eventual fate of the universe with regard to the formation and disintegration of black holes?
Will all matter eventually end up in black holes given that gravitation as far as we can tell is an attractive only force?
Does the ongoing expansion of the universe rule out all matter eventually coming together to either form or be consumed by blackholes. Or is expansion irrelevant with regard to this fate?
If all matter does end up as part of black holes does that mean all that we will ultimately be left with in the final universe is Hawking radiation?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Perdition, posted 06-12-2008 5:27 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 13 by jag, posted 06-15-2008 10:36 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3264 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 10 of 17 (470790)
06-12-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
06-12-2008 5:17 PM


Re: Mundane response #1
Our current understanding of Dark Energy seems to imply that everything will eventually fly apart in The Great Rip. Suposedly, the Dark Energy force will become ever stronger as thigns get further and further apart, until even atoms are pulled apart. I would assume this would also pull apart the black holes.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 11 of 17 (470796)
06-12-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Perdition
06-12-2008 5:27 PM


Expanded Singularities
Hmmmm. Expanded singularities. What a strange concept!!
I hope Son Goku will see fit to provide an expert opinion.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (470811)
06-12-2008 7:47 PM


In a mundane universe in which expansion isn't ultra-fast, then we are left with just Hawking Radiation.
In a universe with jerking (or snapping)* expansion we get the Big Rip as mentioned by Perdition. Basically black holes could shrink as we come closer to the Big Rip, eventually disappearing just before it. Although this isn't Hawking Radiation evaporation.
*Explanation of this silly word here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/jerk.html

  
jag
Member (Idle past 5780 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 13 of 17 (471175)
06-15-2008 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
06-12-2008 5:17 PM


Re: Mundane response #1
It seems to me that science is quite correct about black holes. But when scientists extrapolate to extreme degrees, they are on quite shaky ground. How many times have "proven facts" been shown to be wrong. If the physical contents of a black hole (inside the event horizon) are a singularity, then where is the matter? If it is infinitely small, there is no place for matter to exist.
On that point, I posit a very tentative, and very acknowledged simplistic, theory on black holes and the beginning of the universe as we know it. Galaxies can collide and join and eventually all or much of the universe can be in a single black hole. The conditions inside the black hole might become so extreme that matter simply cannot exit. Once that point is reached, the matter transitions into energy. Energy does not have mass. Therefore the black hole would no longer exist. The energy would be released and start expanding. Effectively a big bang.
Please, don’t jump down my throat too hard, its just a bit of theoretical fantasy within my brain.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 10:55 AM jag has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3670 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 14 of 17 (471176)
06-15-2008 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jag
06-15-2008 10:36 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
I posit a very tentative, and very acknowledged simplistic, theory on black holes
Fair enough, but...
Energy does not have mass.
It certainly does...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jag, posted 06-15-2008 10:36 AM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jag, posted 06-15-2008 2:26 PM cavediver has replied

  
jag
Member (Idle past 5780 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 15 of 17 (471193)
06-15-2008 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by cavediver
06-15-2008 10:55 AM


Re: Mundane response #1
If energy has mass, how can it travel at the speed of light?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 10:55 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 2:34 PM jag has replied

  
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