Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 77 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-22-2019 12:46 PM
28 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,053 Year: 5,090/19,786 Month: 1,212/873 Week: 108/460 Day: 50/58 Hour: 3/11


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
15NextFF
Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
Cocytus
Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
Posts: 19
From: Kansas
Joined: 01-07-2007


Message 1 of 221 (375145)
01-07-2007 6:12 PM


Christianity has, within it's very first book Genesis, stigmatized knowledge itself as something terrible.

quote:

Genesis 3:4 - "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it [the fruit of the tree] your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil..." (NRSV)

Eating of the fruit caused, of course, God's wrath, in turn causing mortality, evil and a whole host of other nastiness. All of which are not up for debate and are stipulated here to be known consequences within the context of the Bible itself.

In practical terms, the consequences of this tale have lead to various problems that are all but unavoidable. The most important of these consequences are as follows:

1) That knowledge itself, for humans, can and should only be obtained through proper channels. Those channels being, namely, God and God's vicars (Pope, priest, minister, pastor etc.)

1.a) As a corollary, all knowledge derived from other sources (namely our senses, either terrestrial or modified via technology) must not be trusted. Only God's word is real in the sense that God could change anything at any time.

2) It is therefore the position of creationists (and other Christians of the same ilk) that the whole of reality must be bound within the Bible. It is thus acceptable, within the faith, to deny any scientific finding that cannot be easily proof-texted.

3) The most important consequence is that Christians desire to stand in the way of science and scientists because their knowledge is somehow inferior to God's.

This, to me, is evil incarnate. If the world can be a better place, and science has the tools to make it so, then there should be no leap of faith that is required of any individual to stand on the side of progress (progress in this sense can be synonymous with "good," so there is an appropriate juxtaposition).

My position is largely in the realm of theory, but I believe it is important to consider whether religion itself is causing humanity to stagnate at a time when anything BUT stagnation is what we need.

This arguement thus asks the question: "Does religion make good people do bad things?" In this case "bad things" refers to standing in the way of progress.

Edited by Cocytus, : My arguement was omni-directional, unfocused and not to the point. The admin pointed this out, it is now fixed.

Edited by Cocytus, : No reason given.

Edited by Cocytus, : No reason given.

Edited by Cocytus, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 01-07-2007 6:43 PM Cocytus has responded
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-08-2007 1:32 PM Cocytus has responded
 Message 10 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 3:34 PM Cocytus has responded
 Message 47 by Rob, posted 01-10-2007 8:47 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

    
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 221 (375155)
01-07-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cocytus
01-07-2007 6:12 PM


Welcome To EvC
Welcome to EvC Cocytus,

Thank you for proposing a new topic and adding to our diversity. Since you are new to EvC, I suggest that you carefully read the Forum Guidelines and familiarize yourself with the functions of EvC by using the Practice Makes Perfect Forum.

I suggest you make your post consistent.
Title: Is Religion Itself Evil?
Question: Is religion itself the cause of evil in the world?

These questions are not asking the same thing. Make your question consistent.

I also suggest leaving out the part about "the real question" to avoid sidetracking.

Let me know when you have edited your OP and need it reviewed again.

In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.

Abide by the Forum Guidelines and all will go well.

Again welcome and fruitful debating. Purple


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Great Debate Proposals

    Helpful links for New Members:
    Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, Assistance w/ Forum Formatting, and Practice Makes Perfect


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 6:12 PM Cocytus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 7:27 PM AdminPD has responded

      
    Cocytus
    Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
    Posts: 19
    From: Kansas
    Joined: 01-07-2007


    Message 3 of 221 (375173)
    01-07-2007 7:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
    01-07-2007 6:43 PM


    Re: Welcome To EvC
    Original post edited to be focused on a specific question.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 01-07-2007 6:43 PM AdminPD has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 4 by AdminPD, posted 01-08-2007 6:50 AM Cocytus has not yet responded
     Message 5 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 12:03 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

        
    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 4 of 221 (375268)
    01-08-2007 6:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Cocytus
    01-07-2007 7:27 PM


    Much Better
    Much better.

    After reading the revised post I think a better title would be "Religion and Knowledge", "Religion vs Knowledge", or "Religion Stifles Knowledge".

    You aren't really discussing evil as the majority would view it. You'll have people spending more time correcting your definition of evil and not the topic.

    I will promote the topic when you've decided on a new title. Let me know.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 7:27 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

      
    Cocytus
    Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
    Posts: 19
    From: Kansas
    Joined: 01-07-2007


    Message 5 of 221 (375345)
    01-08-2007 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Cocytus
    01-07-2007 7:27 PM


    Re: Welcome To EvC
    Title changed.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 7:27 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by AdminPhat, posted 01-08-2007 12:20 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

        
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 6 of 221 (375347)
    01-08-2007 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Cocytus
    01-08-2007 12:03 PM


    Re: Welcome To EvC
    P.D. if its ok with you, I'm gonna just promote him to miscelaneous topics C&E...

    Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 12:03 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

        
    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 7 of 221 (375370)
    01-08-2007 1:13 PM


    Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12251
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 8 of 221 (375379)
    01-08-2007 1:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Cocytus
    01-07-2007 6:12 PM


    Need there be an ultimatum?
    cocytus writes:

    1) That knowledge itself, for humans, can and should only be obtained through proper channels. Those channels being, namely, God and God's vicars (Pope, priest, minister, pastor etc.)

    Phat writes:

    for a believer, it is good to pray for wisdom, but I don't think that God expects us to be helpless. We were given brains for a reason.

    1.a) As a corollary, all knowledge derived from other sources (namely our senses, either terrestrial or modified via technology) must not be trusted. Only God's word is real in the sense that God could change anything at any time.

    thats an extreme position, but not a majority view.

    2) It is therefore the position of creationists (and other Christians of the same ilk) that the whole of reality must be bound within the Bible. It is thus acceptable, within the faith, to deny any scientific finding that cannot be easily proof-texted.

    what do you mean "other Christians of the same ilk"? what ilk?

    3) The most important consequence is that Christians desire to stand in the way of science and scientists because their knowledge is somehow inferior to God's.

    This, to me, is evil incarnate. If the world can be a better place, and science has the tools to make it so, then there should be no leap of faith that is required of any individual to stand on the side of progress (progress in this sense can be synonymous with "good," so there is an appropriate juxtaposition).

    My position is largely in the realm of theory, but I believe it is important to consider whether religion itself is causing humanity to stagnate at a time when anything BUT stagnation is what we need.

    This argument thus asks the question: "Does religion make good people do bad things?" In this case "bad things" refers to standing in the way of progress.


    so what do we do? Outlaw religion? :confused:
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 6:12 PM Cocytus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 2:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Cocytus
    Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
    Posts: 19
    From: Kansas
    Joined: 01-07-2007


    Message 9 of 221 (375402)
    01-08-2007 2:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    01-08-2007 1:32 PM


    Re: Need there be an ultimatum?
    quote:

    for a believer, it is good to pray for wisdom, but I don't think that God expects us to be helpless. We were given brains for a reason.

    "Given"... heh. As if there are X^n brains just sitting around somewhere waiting to be handed out.

    To respond to the point, note that all "wisdom" is a product of knowledge. I shall provide and example:

    It's raining outside. You're standing outside in the rain. You go inside to get out of the rain because you might catch a cold.

    The way this works is as follows: At some point in human history, someone made the correlation between lowered body temperature and the propensity of the body to aquire sicknesses when in such a state. The "knowledge" is A) rain B) being wet can lower body temperature C) colds have a higher insidence of occurance when body temperature is lowered. The "wisdom" is in providing a course of action to avoid the consequence, namely getting in out of the rain.

    All wisdom is as I have have described. There are, however, instances in which there are no precedents, or the precedents are lost/unknown. In any case, all that the believer is doing when praying for wisdom is essentially asking for a course of action. If you don't think that God expects you (humans in general rather) to be helpless, then why pray for wisdom at all? You stipulate that "we were 'given' brains for a reason," so why not use them?

    It seems that in the case of "praying for wisdom" you are falling into the same trap that I have laid out in my original post, though simply by replacing the word "knowledge" with the word "wisdom."

    quote:

    thats an extreme position, but not a majority view.

    quote:

    what do you mean "other Christians of the same ilk"? what ilk?

    I will do my best to respond to both at once.

    When I say "of the same ilk," I imagine the following: it is possible that someone (many people actually) are NOT creationists, but chose to stand in the way of progress because of their religious motivations. So by "ilk" I mean non-creationists that engage in the same types of actions that are known to be engaged in by creationists.

    The example that comes to mind is, to be clichè, stem cell research.

    I think that we'll both agree that the majority of Christians are on the "nay" side of this issue. They are certainly the most vocal.

    The issue for Christians, as I understand it, is that God has put a soul into every fertilized egg (letting go the fact that some ridiculously high percentage of fertilized eggs actually get flushed out of a womens' bodies before they attatch to the uterine wall). The REAL issue is that there is NO WAY TO KNOW if there is a soul there or not. We can't ASK the gamete, it has no ability to respond. But what Christians DO is appropriate "knowledge" (however biased in this case) from the sources mentioned in my first post is USE that knowledge to stand in the way of progress.

    I don't think that 1.a in my first post is at all an extreme position. Scientifically, the knowledge we have about gametes is that they are nothing more than a cluster of cells. There is, very scientifically, no possible way that the gamete can have any sort of consciousness. Yet Christians choose to reject this knowledge out of hand in favor of some ephemeral idea of a soul.

    Of course, not ALL Christians are this way, but it is most certainly the case that the exception does not prove the rule.

    quote:

    so what do we do? Outlaw religion?

    THAT question is one that I'm not sure is on-topic and one that I don't think I want to try to answer. It is most interesting though that you immediately see the potential consequences of my argument being "right." Not to say that it IS right, but if it were taken to be true, your question would be most appropriate.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 01-08-2007 1:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 3:55 PM Cocytus has responded
     Message 12 by jar, posted 01-08-2007 4:09 PM Cocytus has not yet responded
     Message 221 by Larni, posted 04-10-2007 10:22 AM Cocytus has not yet responded

        
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4060 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 10 of 221 (375417)
    01-08-2007 3:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Cocytus
    01-07-2007 6:12 PM


    Cocytus writes:

    This arguement thus asks the question: "Does religion make good people do bad things?" In this case "bad things" refers to standing in the way of progress.

    Last question first; By religion you mean Christianity, as per the rest of the OP. It is important to remember that the vast body we call christendom is composed of an endless assortment of denominations and individuals within the denominations. No two agree on everything or treat the Bible in the same way. You need to make a much better case to show that through all of time christianity has impeded progress, before you can scape goat the Bible. The Bible is at fault only because men put so much stock in it being the infallible and literal Word of God, that whatever less-than-inspired interpretation they come up with is regarded as infallible in itself. It doesn't seem to be the trend anymore to shape a religion around a doctrine. The newer sects that have sprung up are more centered around prophesying the end of the world and causing their adherents to react like crazies over physical events rather than dwell on spiritual life. These type of sects are 100% SURE of themselves because the Bible says so, no matter that no one else sees it. The thought they alone possess this TRUE superior knowledge of the Bible adds even more fuel to the fire.

    My position is largely in the realm of theory, but I believe it is important to consider whether religion itself is causing humanity to stagnate at a time when anything BUT stagnation is what we need.

    Are we stagnating as humans? I think this is one of the questions that is completely relative to the observer's viewpoint. I will leave it an open question.

    I do not see a direct link from Gen 1 to the idea that ALL knowledge is evil. The knowledge of good and evil is a one-time event. It is this specific knowledge that God forbade in the garden, not knowledge in general. There is no forbidding of scientific knowledge, or of progress, but already the implication that man SHOULD learn to use the beasts as helpers and to use the fruits for sustenance. God even allowed Adam to name the beasts for himself.

    Our knowledge of science and technology is not good or evil. It is how we use the knowledge that is called into question. We are called to be good stewards of knowledge, to use it to better ourselves and to serve our fellow man. Remember this verse;

    To he whom much has been given, much will be demanded?

    1) That knowledge itself, for humans, can and should only be obtained through proper channels. Those channels being, namely, God and God's vicars (Pope, priest, minister, pastor etc.)

    I have a big problem with this further lumping together of christianity. There may be some sects and individuals who claim to have all the secrets of earth and heaven bottled up, but please, for the most part, the only secret knowledge christian leaders seek to give out is of the spiritual kind. I would like to hope that some day all christians will not be confused with fundie preachers of Biblical creation science.

    1.a) As a corollary, all knowledge derived from other sources (namely our senses, either terrestrial or modified via technology) must not be trusted. Only God's word is real in the sense that God could change anything at any time.

    I keep having to whip this one out. Oh well...

    Augustine of Hippo writes:

    It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are... With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation."

    Cocytus again writes:

    The most important consequence is that Christians desire to stand in the way of science and scientists because their knowledge is somehow inferior to God's.

    Have you ever put together a list of what christians HAVE accmplished in the way of progress, or do you just dwell on the tiny minority who profess christianity to be incompatible with it?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Cocytus, posted 01-07-2007 6:12 PM Cocytus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 4:57 PM anastasia has responded

        
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4060 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 11 of 221 (375422)
    01-08-2007 3:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Cocytus
    01-08-2007 2:44 PM


    Re: Need there be an ultimatum?
    Cocytus writes:

    It seems that in the case of "praying for wisdom" you are falling into the same trap that I have laid out in my original post, though simply by replacing the word "knowledge" with the word "wisdom."

    Praying for wisdom is obviously not shunning knowledge. It is asking for the best course of action based on current knowledge, or asking for enough knowledge to plan a course of action that will benefit the good.

    But what Christians DO is appropriate "knowledge" (however biased in this case) from the sources mentioned in my first post is USE that knowledge to stand in the way of progress.

    I think we all have the same knowledge that christians are using here. That knowledge is called 'love thy neighbor'. The Bible does not anywhere mention when a soul appears, but christians have a better safe-than-sorry mentality in defense of the value of human life which conflicts with the scientific study inasmuch that science is ALSO trying to serve fellow man and save life. If only we could go back to the Bible and ask;

    But Lord, who is my neighbor?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 2:44 PM Cocytus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 5:08 PM anastasia has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 12 of 221 (375424)
    01-08-2007 4:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Cocytus
    01-08-2007 2:44 PM


    Probably should check a few facts.
    The example that comes to mind is, to be clichè, stem cell research.

    I think that we'll both agree that the majority of Christians are on the "nay" side of this issue. They are certainly the most vocal.

    Well there is also a very large percentage of Christians that favor stem cell research. One of the leading stem cell research centers in the US is the Stem Cell Center at Saint Luke's Episcopal Hospital.

    It is true that you will find a very vocal Christian presence opposing many issues, from equal rights for all to stem cell research to stewardship of the environment to foreign policy.

    There is also though a vocal Christian presence that will and does stand right beside you decrying the exact issues you raise. Consider, as another example, The Christian Alliance for Progress.

    Also consider the statement signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy in the Clergy Project where they say ...

    We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.

    I would agree that today, as has been the case throughout history, there is a struggle between knowledge and ignorance, and that the side of ignorance has a a vested interest in keeping their flock ignorant. But do not be surprised if you find that some of your supporters in the fight against ignorance turn out to be Theist and even Christians.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 2:44 PM Cocytus has not yet responded

      
    Cocytus
    Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
    Posts: 19
    From: Kansas
    Joined: 01-07-2007


    Message 13 of 221 (375437)
    01-08-2007 4:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by anastasia
    01-08-2007 3:34 PM


    quote:

    The newer sects that have sprung up are more centered around prophesying the end of the world and causing their adherents to react like crazies over physical events rather than dwell on spiritual life. These type of sects are 100% SURE of themselves because the Bible says so, no matter that no one else sees it. The thought they alone possess this TRUE superior knowledge of the Bible adds even more fuel to the fire.

    Newer sects?

    quote:

    "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

    The above quote is from Pope Pious XII in 1953. Note that this is DOCTRINAL, not simply DOGMATIC. IT also make NO DISTINCTION bewtween spiritual truths and secular/sensorial truths. I would assume you don't think that Catholicism is a "newer sect."

    quote:

    I do not see a direct link from Gen 1 to the idea that ALL knowledge is evil.

    How do you not see it? The gatekeeper of the first learning event is presided over by what is widely accepted to be the devil himself. The devil (serpent is synonymous with devil in this case right?) is the one that convinces Eve to eat of the fruit. Humans are delving into God's realm: good and evil (though the specifics are murky because "evil" can't actually exist, theologically speaking, until AFTER the event).

    Maybe you don't understand theology (in this case theodicy), so let me clarify what it is that you HAVE TO BELIEVE in order to be a Christian. This isn't even up for debate, it's dogmatic. To be a Christian you have to believe that 1) there was perfection in the garden (earth) 2) perfection means that there was no such thing as evil on earth 3) this is the case because God (as infinite as he/she is) cannot CONTAIN, and therefore cannot CREATE, evil 4) evil was created my humans because they ate of the tree of knowledge.

    Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

    quote:

    I have a big problem with this further lumping together of christianity. There may be some sects and individuals who claim to have all the secrets of earth and heaven bottled up, but please, for the most part, the only secret knowledge christian leaders seek to give out is of the spiritual kind. I would like to hope that some day all christians will not be confused with fundie preachers of Biblical creation science.

    Please tell me you're joking. Christian leaders are rife with explatives in all spheres (political, scientific, name it). They're everywhere. I'll try to find a link to the New York Times Op-Ed piece where an Archbishop lambasts Richard Dawkins concerning evolution. It exists, but I don't know if I can get to it since I don't pay for the online version of the Times.

    Also, see above concerning lumping together Christian denominations. There are fundamental (pardon the pun) tenets that are REQUIRED for one to believe in order to be a Christian. I can comfortably lump Christians together in this argument (save for obvious exceptions like the Hutterites).

    quote:

    Have you ever put together a list of what christians HAVE accmplished in the way of progress, or do you just dwell on the tiny minority who profess christianity to be incompatible with it?

    I know I started this usage of the word "progress" and I'm kicking myself for doing so. It's a loaded term and implies many things that aren't necessarily included in its usage. I tried to limit how it was used in the context of this argument. I think I was trying to say something about this particular progression: bad --> not so bad --> good. In terms of how we all live our lives on this planet (morally, maybe, but I'm thinking specifically about the appaling conditions that most of the planet lives in).

    And I trust that I don't need to post repetitive examples of Christians standing against science. Galileo's life is but a grain of sand in the desert of ignorance that defines Christian history.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 3:34 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 5:48 PM Cocytus has responded
     Message 202 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 1:32 AM Cocytus has not yet responded

        
    Cocytus
    Junior Member (Idle past 4394 days)
    Posts: 19
    From: Kansas
    Joined: 01-07-2007


    Message 14 of 221 (375438)
    01-08-2007 5:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by anastasia
    01-08-2007 3:55 PM


    Re: Need there be an ultimatum?
    quote:

    Praying for wisdom is obviously not shunning knowledge. It is asking for the best course of action based on current knowledge, or asking for enough knowledge to plan a course of action that will benefit the good.

    It obviously IS shunning knowledge! Refer to my post about proper channels. Why... this always boggles me... why would anyone choose to not rely on their own merits (knowledge) or the knowledge of their peers and instead choose a channel that is either A) obviously incredibly biased (pastors, priests etc.) or B) simply doesn't exist (God speaking)? I mean, truly, if God DID exist, why would God want you to pray to him/her for guidance when he/she gave you all the facilities to make decisions yourself?

    "Love thy neighbor" is wisdom, not factual knowledge, and it again boggles my mind that someone might consider a pre-conscious mass of cells to be their neighbor while at the same time ignoring the social and political fires that are destroying the entire African continent (for example).

    Edited by Cocytus, : Needed to clarify what kind of knowledge I was talking about in the last paragraph.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 3:55 PM anastasia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 6:26 PM Cocytus has not yet responded
     Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 01-08-2007 6:41 PM Cocytus has not yet responded
     Message 18 by anastasia, posted 01-08-2007 6:50 PM Cocytus has responded

        
    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 4060 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 15 of 221 (375446)
    01-08-2007 5:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Cocytus
    01-08-2007 4:57 PM


    Cocytus writes:

    Newer sects?

    Yes, there are plenty of newer sects which have a specificly themed belief which rejects 'progress' via denying to it members medical attention, voting rights, political affiliation or participation, use of the internet, etc.

    The above quote is from Pope Pious XII in 1953. Note that this is DOCTRINAL, not simply DOGMATIC. IT also make NO DISTINCTION bewtween spiritual truths and secular/sensorial truths.

    Of course it doesn't. No one in their right minds would think a church was using the word 'truth' in anything but a spiritual sense.

    Look at 1 Timothy;

    We are all bound to search for the truth

    If you think Paul means secular/sensorial truth, well there goes the whole argument that christianity wants to impede progress.

    Oh, and Romans 2:8;

    Those who refuse to search for truth will be met with the wrath of God

    I am not a big Bible-quoter miner, but if christians start using 'truth' to mean secular/sensorial evidence, well I guess we had better get cracking! According to the Bible, if we don't look for truth, we will be condemned.

    Here's one more, from Galations.

    Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    Well, my oh my, I can't seem to find Paul anywhere distinguishing spiritual truth from secular truth! I also don't notice him giving science lectures at universities.

    And I trust that I don't need to post repetitive examples of Christians standing against science. Galileo's life is but a grain of sand in the desert of ignorance that defines Christian history.

    Certainly not, I asked for repetitive examples of christians helping science, or at the very least some evidence that all scientists are non-christian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Cocytus, posted 01-08-2007 4:57 PM Cocytus has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by Cocytus, posted 01-09-2007 4:26 PM anastasia has responded

        
    1
    23456
    ...
    15NextFF
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019