Thermodynamics and Cosmology for MPW

Yes, but increases in entropy are not things "getting worse," or "running down." They are simply heat transfers from higher concentrations to lower concentrations. Furthermore, as I said before, there have been very important advances in non-equilibrium thermodynamics that show how small local descreases in entropy can result in an overall increase in entropy showing that in the 2ndLoT can be "bent" enough to form temporary orderly structures. A thermodynamically closed system is one that has an enclosing boundary, and no such boundary is observed of the universe. Therefore, it is false to assert that it is a closed system. Then where did your God come from?The fact is that we observe every present state of the universe to have "come from" the previous state, and for that reason we should conclude that there was no initial state without a previous state from whence everything came. In other words, since the 2ndLoT seems to persist though time, it is most reasonable to conclude that it has always been a property of the universe and didn't "come from" anywhere at all.

AFAIK it's currently unknown whether or not it is valid to treat the entire universe as a thermodynamically closed system. However, it's irrelevant.There is nothing that prevents entropy from being rearranged within a closed system so that entropy decreases in only some portion of a closed system. I.e., entropy decreases here but increases more over there; the net is that the overall entropy of the system increases and the second law is not violated.Since the Earth is not in equilibrium with its surroundings, the real calculations get complex. In Re: Evidence Gordon Davisson corrected my error and calculated approximately that the Earth's entropy could be decreasing as much as 3.3*10¹⁴ joules per degree Kelvin per second due to fluxes into and out of a boundary around the Earth; obviously, entropy generated by irreversible processes inside the boundary will affect the overall entropy of the system.As far as the identification of entropy with disorder, it's valid in some cases and invalid in others, and it's not always intuitive which is which. The best explanation I've seen is Entropy, Disorder and Life.

One easy to understand explaination I find that is helpful is the separation of salt and fresh water here on earth. If the earth were at equilibrium all of the water on the surface of the earth would be salty, but instead we have separate fresh and salt water. How does this occur? By the input of energy from the sun which causes water to evaporate and travel up into the atmosphere. If earth were a closed system, this could not happen.For those biochemist nuts, I always like to point out that without the 2LoT, life couldn't exist. How else could you get energy out of sunlight or carbohydrates? To decrease entropy you must have an input of free energy. If you have available energy then entropy can decrease. It really is that simple.[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 02-02-2004]

Wow, you can't argue with logic like that!
HERE IS THE DEFINITION OF ENTROPY:
1.Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.2.A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3.A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4.The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5.Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.EVERY ONE of these proves what you're saying wrong. This is from the most modern dictionary guys!
Those definitions in other words state that the universe is RUNNING DOWN! Advances? You're saying that when things run down, they somehow magically get better? That is NOT science. A closed system basically means there is no outside energy. We haven't seen any outside energy. The 2ndLoT persists through time? Where did time come from? Where did space come from? Where did matter come from? God exists outside of time and space, you can't even ask "where" he came from. There wasn't even space to come from. He was everything, which was nothing. That might not make sense but God is way beyond our little 3-pound brains.

But you can ask where time and space came from? Why is God different? You say so?

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Common sense isn't

So what? You're applying the 2ndLoT invalidly as I demonstrated above. No, they don't, because it is not valid to apply them to the universe as a whole. Please show me where I said that.The fact is that you are obviously unfamilar with Priogine's Nobel Prize-winning work that showed how dissipative structures could form in a thermodynamic system decreasing local entropy in places within the system while still preserving an overall increase in entropy for the system as whole. That is not what closed system is at all. A closed system exchanges energy but not matter from an outside system across it's boundary. You're confusing it with an isolated system. However, in either case, these systems have boundaries which define them, since we do not observe a boundary to the universe, we cannot validly define it as a closed or an isolated system, despite your most desperate attempts to.For reference, see: http://www.mhtl.uwaterloo.ca/...09/notes/general/system1.pdf Yep. They are both coordinate systems abstracted from reality by human minds. Thus, they came from humans. The matter and energy before it. Don't tell me. Show me. Sure I can. You stated that it was a "fact" that "everything had to come from somewhere," and now you're trying to make an exception which renders your original statement false. Now, did you take into consideration your belief that God doesn't "come from somewhere" before you stated that everything does exactly what you believe your God does not? If you did, that makes you dishonest, however I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply presume you're mistaken. Ahhhh.... the last resort of a cornered Christian... "God works in mysterious ways." Please. Come back when you actually want to try your hand at a logical argument.

Yes, but still entropy can be (and is) rearranged within the system so as to, for example, decrease entropy on Earth and increase entropy (more) in the rest of the Universe. No, he's saying nothing like that at all. Try re-reading what he wrote. Yes. So what? Entropy can be (and is) rearranged within the system so as to, for example, decrease entropy on Earth and increase entropy (more) in the rest of the Universe.Thermodynamics is a quantitative science. If you want to claim that the second law prohibits evolution, stop waving your armes and present your calculations. I provided a link to some sample calculations in my first post in this thread.

Different disciplines define "closed" differently. As a mechanical engineer, I was taught that "closed" meant that nothing of importance crosses the boundary; i.e. my "closed" is your "isolated".

double post[This message has been edited by JonF, 02-03-2004]

Dude, if you want a definition of a scientific term go to a science book not a mainstream dictionary.

Since God has magic powers that put He-man and Superman combined to shame, he is somehow exempt from logic. That's really what it comes down to when dealing with religious fundementalists. They simply don't believe in logic. Consider these quotes:God exists outside of time and spaceANDHe was everything, which was nothingThere does not appear to be an exception in this case either. Oh well, it's not like anyone expected anything more.[This message has been edited by Beercules, 02-03-2004]

You guys are focusing on entropy completely. What the thermodynamic laws state under which conditions will a chemical reaction go no matter the temperature.You guys might be forgetting one thing, and that is enthalpy. I stated this in another entropy argument before. There are TWO main driving forces of chemical reactions. There is enthalpy, and entropy. Enthalpy is the potential energies of the chemical bonds. I also think you guys have plenty of definitions of entropy.Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is plenty of natural reactions that go against entropy. Why? because enthalpy "overpowers" entropy so to speak. There is a equation to express free energy relative to entropy and enthalpy, but i don't know how to do the symbols on a computer and I am too lazy to look how to. Another factor is temperature, and this directly effect entropy.What my point is you can't say that the whole universe is going to perish because of entropy, or get completely better because of entropy, because you are only focusing on one factor. There are two others.The bible basically says you can't comprehend how there is a God, that you should just except it.

What a marvelous suggestion. Consider it excepted.--Macavity

Enthalpy in no way invalidates entropy. Chemical reactions can be driven that require free energy, but at the expense of free energy from the system. Entropy increases overall. Ie. The process of photosynthesis generates energetic molecules that can do work, but they are generated at the expense of free energy. Not counting the amount of entropy increase of our sun/earth system as the light travels toward earth, you still experience entropy, since the free energy isn't 100% converted to chemical energy. In this example, the entropy of the molecule does decrease (a local phenomena), but at the expense of a larger increase of entropy in the given system.As for your biblical statement, feel free to embrace personal ignorance on the authority of some book. The rest of us will keep questioning and trying to understand the physical world around us.

uuhhh reread my response.These guys were rampaging on about entropy and the big bang. I then stated that entropy isn't the full fource about chemical reactions, whether it is changing states of matter, ANY REACTION, and the universe isn't an exception.I would assume you know how free energy is expressed with temperature, entropy, and enthalpy. That is what I am saying.And I wasn't saying I believed in God. Someone posted above saying about something along the lines of how can you totally believe in something you can't see or know got there. And I made that statement that the bible basically says you can't comprehend the beginning of god and to just accept it.Please....just because I say God don't declare me your enemy. That is closemindedness, and people like you are dangerous.