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Author Topic:   How do creationists explain stars?
carini
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 297 (288286)
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


Did god speed up the speed of light for a few days? If most creationists believe the world was created relatvively recently ~6000 years ago, how did the light from stars reach earth?

Most visible stars in the night sky are less then 3000 light years away which goes in creationists favor, but what about those stars and galaxies more then 6000 light years away, how are these visible with telescopes? Unless god changed the laws of physics from their current values, how are these visible?

This message has been edited by carini, 02-21-2006 02:06 PM


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Admin
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Message 2 of 297 (289020)
02-21-2006 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


Please edit your post to remove the comments not relevant to your topic, namely the second sentence.

Then please expand your first sentence to make more clear why this represents a problem for the creationist viewpoint.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
Director
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Message 3 of 297 (289489)
02-22-2006 8:49 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
macaroniandcheese 
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Message 4 of 297 (289512)
02-22-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


because they aren't actual stars, they're just hung up there in the great canopy.

it's probably been put there to fool us into believing a lie, like dinosaur bones.

or worse. he sped up light cause he's so great at deception.

but probably, he created the universe and then later created earth. or some nonsense.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 02-22-2006 10:07 AM


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Thugpreacha
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Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 297 (289513)
02-22-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


My Stars! God determines Physics...not visa versa
carini writes:

Did god speed up the speed of light for a few days? If most creationists believe the world was created relatvively recently ~6000 years ago, how did the light from stars reach earth?

Most visible stars in the night sky are less then 3000 light years away which goes in creationists favor, but what about those stars and galaxies more then 6000 light years away, how are these visible with telescopes? Unless god changed the laws of physics from their current values, how are these visible?

This is a good topic, carini, and I welcome you to EvC, by the way! :) In fact, even as a believer, this logic has compelled me to abandon any theories in support of a Young Earth.

From the argument of the other side, however, God could have done the initial act of creation any way He saw fit to do so. God is not bound by laws and observed scientific behaviors. He simply is not fully understood! Even putting God out of the picture, however, we have a universe of 100 billion stars per galaxy and 100 billion galaxies.

It is premature to assume that one species on one planet that is a mere speck in the grand scheme of things can argue that our 200 years of scientific wisdom can and will give us an accurate picture of the behavior of this universe through time.

From the perspective of a believer, the same can be said of a God whom we believe in and have perceived, yet cannot comprehend the significance of!

Believers are so quick to casually mention how God does things, when in perspective, God by definition must be even more complex than 100 billion galaxies!

There is MUCH that is not yet known!


Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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Coragyps
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Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 297 (289518)
02-22-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


Not only do objects appear to be that far away, they've been measured to be. A month or two ago a measurement to a star-forming region of about 6000 light years was reported that was based ONLY on geometry: we know the size of our Earth's orbit, and they measured the angular deflection of a maser in the next spiral arm of our galaxy over six months' time.

Similarly, the distance to the galaxy Messier 106 has been measured using only geometry along with the same sort of redshift that the police use to give you a speeding ticket. That distance is 25,000,000 light years. No amount of hand-waving about "changing speed of light" can explain what we see out there in any "young universe" scenario.


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mike the wiz
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Message 7 of 297 (289523)
02-22-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


Certainly not brain dilation
Did god speed up the speed of light for a few days? If most creationists believe the world was created relatvively recently ~6000 years ago, how did the light from stars reach earth?

There are a number of hidden assumptions in this question, that a believer must first believe. Here they are;

1. We must assume that Genesis is true, despite this belief not being required by Jesus Christ.

2. We must then believe Genesis is a historically and scientifically accurate description of events.

3. We must assume that humans, when writing Genesis, had a suspension of fallibility.

4. We must treat an un-corroborated source as accurate despite knowledge that humans' engage in memory bias, confirmation bias and a whole host of psychological innacuracies.

5. We must assume that even though the bible is only touted as an inspired book, that somehow it becomes as important as God, when reading Genesis.

6. We have to assume that the bible excludes evolution, when it doesn't mention this at all, whatsoever.

7. That the universal clock started ticking at the beggining of the genealogies

A house of cards.

Why would God speed up light, when he could just fail to be interested in a mythical story? That assumes that God is as obtuse as people who automatically assume all of these things. It also proves that God would be a cryptic author of confusion, relying on us assuming very many vacuous premisses.

I can save a YEC a whole lot of energy by telling him that I was a YEC and that it's a waste of time.

P.S. I'm guessing the YEC has to go for 'Humphrey's time dilation'. Google it.

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-22-2006 10:42 AM


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iano
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 297 (289535)
02-22-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by carini
02-19-2006 1:47 AM


What I wonder is how someone can say a star is 6000 light years away when what they are looking at is the light supposedly emitted 6000 years ago.

How do we tell the distance to anything when it is not there in the first place?

Anyone got and good links (for a beginner) on the principles of how distances to stars and galaxies are measured. I have always been intrigued by the vastness of space and the distances said to be involved. About time I found out about it.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 9 of 297 (289546)
02-22-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-22-2006 11:26 AM


Iano - start with Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 297 (289550)
02-22-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-22-2006 11:26 AM


Also, there is a classic thread about this subject.

Message 1


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 11 of 297 (289553)
02-22-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-22-2006 11:26 AM


How do we tell the distance to anything when it is not there in the first place?

By this I presume you mean "when it's no longer in the place it was when it emitted that ray of light?" We can measure pretty accurately how fast many objects in our galaxy are moving, and only a very few are going at even a noticeable fraction of the speed of light. Past (or future) positions of lots of nearby stars have been calculated, and it's no more difficult than "A train leaves Topeka eastbound at 47 mph....."


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jar
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Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 12 of 297 (289559)
02-22-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-22-2006 11:26 AM


The thread "How big is our Galaxy"
You might also want to read the thread How big is our Galaxy that approaches the issue of stars and age of universe from a different perspective.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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NosyNed
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Posts: 8858
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Message 13 of 297 (289563)
02-22-2006 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
02-22-2006 11:26 AM


Parallax
Some (very few) stars are near enough to be measured directly by parallax.

see: ( a cool animation showing it very, very clearly)
cornell parallax

That is the starting point.


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iano
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 14 of 297 (289637)
02-22-2006 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
02-22-2006 12:47 PM


Re: Parallax
If a picture tells a thousand words then a piece of animation a millon. Thanks Ned. And thanks to others who have provided links. Will go a-delving. It truly is mind boggling from my perspective.

I followed the debate a while in Mod's link to start with and noticed in passing that many there aren't here anymore. Where do old the posters go to die I wonder? And what with the flurry of new posters this last couple of weeks or so. It seems every day brings a few more at the moment...


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Drew_theist
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 297 (291899)
03-03-2006 5:25 PM


Hello carini,

I am not a creationist, I am a theist and I don't believe the universe or earth is around 6000 years old or so.

I think the universe is between 15 and 20 billion years old. So how do you think the stars came into existence?


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