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Author Topic:   Do you really understand the ToE?
pesto
Member (Idle past 5588 days)
Posts: 63
From: Chicago, IL
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 1 of 19 (356147)
10-12-2006 2:26 PM


I would like to devote this thread to developing a simple test to determine whether a person actually understands the Theory of Evolution.
The test should be composed of Yes/No questions. If a person finishes the test answering all questions "Yes", that should be confirmation that the test taker understands the Theory of Evolution. The questions should be posed in lay terminology so almost anyone with a basic understanding of biology should be able to take it. The questions should also avoid certain words that may send up red flags, like "selection". Some sample questions might look like this.
* Are traits passed from one generation to the next via DNA?
* Do mutations occur?
* Can mutations result in new traits?
* If a trait benefits the survival of an individual, will that trait become more prevalent in subsequent generations?
* If a trait disfavors the survival of an individual, will that trait become less prevalent in subsequent generations?
* etc.
The questions would need to be ordered in such a fasion that they would progress from the most basic questions (Do mutations occur?) to more sophisticated questions. These example questions could be used as a jumping off point
I do not want this to be a debate thread. This should be a thread about what the Theory of Evolution states. The test can be used to take someone unfamiliar with the ToE, or only familiar with a strawman version through what the ToE actually says step by step and show exactly which parts of the theory are misunderstood.
This is an idea I pulled off another message board, but thought that this board would be able to do a better job with it.
Proposed forum: Is it Science?
Edited by pesto, : No reason given.
Edited by pesto, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2006 4:11 PM pesto has replied
 Message 8 by Parasomnium, posted 10-12-2006 4:53 PM pesto has replied
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AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 19 (356152)
10-12-2006 2:47 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 3 of 19 (356157)
10-12-2006 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pesto
10-12-2006 2:26 PM


If I remember correctly, Chiroptera did something rather like this at some point. I had a brief dig through his history but couldn't find it though... I think he's your man though.

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 Message 4 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2006 3:36 PM Tusko has replied

  
Modulous
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From: Manchester, UK
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Message 4 of 19 (356163)
10-12-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tusko
10-12-2006 3:23 PM


You're probably thinking of Evolution Simplified.
There is another thread of interest, but I haven't found it just yet...

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Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 5 of 19 (356164)
10-12-2006 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
10-12-2006 3:36 PM


Yes! That's what I was thinking of. Thanks for digging that up, Modulous.
Although it isn't explicitly written in a question and answer format I think it offers a very neat slippery slope to evolution. Of course, its not one that everyone will have a stomach for...

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Modulous
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Message 6 of 19 (356169)
10-12-2006 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pesto
10-12-2006 2:26 PM


Truth mapping
TruthMapping.com and TruthMapping.com talks about Truthmapping.com which is an aid to breaking down debate into logically small statements. Hopefully you might find some ideas in the Evolution Simplified thread and at truthmapping.com :-D

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pesto
Member (Idle past 5588 days)
Posts: 63
From: Chicago, IL
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 7 of 19 (356171)
10-12-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Modulous
10-12-2006 3:36 PM


That is kind of what I'm going for. The reason for the question format is twofold. First, it can be used as a pencil and paper "test". Second, it can be used as an outline for a discussion of the ToE. Start at question one until you answer no. Discuss the question until both parties are satisfied, and continue on in this fasion.

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Parasomnium
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Posts: 2224
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Message 8 of 19 (356172)
10-12-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pesto
10-12-2006 2:26 PM


Two comment
pesto writes:
If a person finishes the test answering all questions "Yes", that should be confirmation that not only does the test taker understand the Theory of Evolution.
I have two comments.
  1. You didn't finish that sentence. Not only does the test taker understand the theory of evolution, but also ... ?
  2. If all the answers are "yes", and a test taker knows this from reading you opening post, then it isn't really a test, is it? Any Bible-thumping hack could come in here and say "I understand the theory of evolution perfectly. Look, I answered everything with yes, and that settles it. Now, about the Flood..."

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Replies to this message:
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pesto
Member (Idle past 5588 days)
Posts: 63
From: Chicago, IL
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 9 of 19 (356174)
10-12-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Parasomnium
10-12-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Two comment
1. Correction made
2. This isn't meant as a test you would take in school. It is meant as a tool to show which parts of the ToE are or aren't understood by an individual. The test taker would have to be honest.
AbE: A "bible thumping hack" being Christian, would have to be honest. No?
Edited by pesto, : No reason given.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 19 (356175)
10-12-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pesto
10-12-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Two comment
A "bible thumping hack" being Christian, would have to be honest. No?
No. But I could be lying

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pesto
Member (Idle past 5588 days)
Posts: 63
From: Chicago, IL
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 11 of 19 (356176)
10-12-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
10-12-2006 4:11 PM


Re: Truth mapping
I like that, but I think each logical step is too large. I want to boil it down to very simple yes/no questions to really pinpoint where the misunderstanding is.

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Parasomnium
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Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 12 of 19 (356177)
10-12-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pesto
10-12-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Two comment
It is meant as a tool to show which parts of the ToE are or aren't understood by an individual.
I see. Good idea.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 19 (356188)
10-12-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pesto
10-12-2006 2:26 PM


I don't think you want to set it up that all questions are yes answers, if for no other reason than to keep it from being too predictable.
A couple for later in the list:
  • Natural Selection causes beneficial and harmful mutations to happen so that they can be selected
  • Evolution can explain the diversity of all life on the planet
  • Evolution can explain the beginning of life on this planet
Enjoy.

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pesto
Member (Idle past 5588 days)
Posts: 63
From: Chicago, IL
Joined: 04-05-2006


Message 14 of 19 (356295)
10-13-2006 12:03 PM


Let's get to the questions
Lets start suggesting questions for the test. Here's my start.
  • Are an individual's physical traits determined by their DNA?
  • Are physical traits passed from one generation to the next via DNA?
  • Do mutations occur?
  • Can a mutation result in a new physical trait?
  • Do physical traits help determine whether an individual will survive and reproduce?
  • If a physical trait is beneficial to survival and reproduction, will that trait become more common in successive generations?
  • If a physical trait is detrimental to survival and reproduction, will that trait become less common in successive generations?
  • Will different traits be beneficial in different environments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 10-13-2006 12:59 PM pesto has replied

  
nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
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Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 19 (356311)
10-13-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by pesto
10-13-2006 12:03 PM


Re: Let's get to the questions
Lets start suggesting questions for the test. Here's my start.
Okay. I'll take the test as it is now given, to see how it goes.
  • Are an individual's physical traits determined by their DNA?
    No.
  • Are physical traits passed from one generation to the next via DNA?
    No.
  • Do mutations occur?
    Yes.
  • Can a mutation result in a new physical trait?
    I'll pass on that question.
  • Do physical traits help determine whether an individual will survive and reproduce?
    "Help determine" is a poor choice of words. In ordinary usage, "help" implies something about intentions.
    I'll tentatively answer: No.
  • If a physical trait is beneficial to survival and reproduction, will that trait become more common in successive generations?
    I'll pass on that one, too.
  • If a physical trait is detrimental to survival and reproduction, will that trait become less common in successive generations?
    Yet another pass.
  • Will different traits be beneficial in different environments?
  • Yes. And that's why the two preceding questions are bad, and why I gave them a pass.
    The questions are too simplistic. The DNA determines proteins, not traits. You have ignored the complex interactions with the environment, and that many traits depend on multiple genes.
    Okay, so I am being picky. But there is a reason. Many creationists have learned a strawman version of evolution. The strawman version would probably be enough for them to come up with what you intended to take as the correct answers. To be useful, a test has to distinguish between a decent understanding of evolution and the strawman version.

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