Thermodynamics

How does the theory of evolution get around the 2nd law of thermodynamics? (The law that the universe is moving from order to disorder)In order for biological evolution to work simple species are supposed to "evolve" and build upward, becoming more complex. An apelike creature becoming human, for an example. But the 2nd law of thermodynamics, a law as proven as gravity, causes the opposite. We do not occasionally see gravity "fail", and witness objects falling off the earth. So how can TTOE continually break laws without question? I am very interested in an evolutionist's view on this subject, so if you guys could answer that would be great. Thanks

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Evolution does not contradict the second law of thermodynamics, anymore than geo-stationary satellites contradict the laws of gravity. The apparent decrease in entropy (disorder) represented by a living organism is paid-for by an increase in entropy elsewhere (e.g. all your discarded pizza boxes). You are considering the organism in isolation, but in reality it is always having an impact on its environment which is on a relentless path towards disorder.

You grew from a single zygote to an adult in just a few years. Do you think that is a violation of thermodynamics? It is not; and for all the same reasons.If you answer this post, please answer the question about the zygote to adult. Do you think that violates the law of thermodynamics?Cheers -- Sylas

All living things seem to violate the second law. We are born, we grow and continue growing into something greater. But in the end, all things die anyway in accordance with the law. So for 80 years (or however long i live) i seem to be winning the fight, but ultimatly my body will degenerate until death.

So are you saying that even though things are breaking up, the peices gather together to form something better?

The decay of your dead body is not the pay-back for your loan from chaos, more like it is the death of those that gave their lives to feed you for 80 years (yuk this is morbid! - but true)And when you die, yes, your components will be usuful to other life but not neccessarily for the better.

But i dont understand how things progressed when faced with such an uphill battle?

By being "pushed from behind", by the constant influx of energy from the Sun.The second law of thermodynamics states that entropy of a system increases but to calculate the entropy change you must include any entropy that flows across the boundary of the system. Living beings cause a reduction of entropy on the Earth, the heat radiated from the Earth to space causes a greater increase of entropy on Earth, for an overall increase; the secobnd law is satisfied. The energy from the Sun keeps us warm enough to have useful energy available and to continue to radiate enough energy to space to offset the entropy decrease of living things. It can't go on forever; in 5-6 billion years we're toast.

Hi, Jordo! Electron's (hi, Electron!) example of pizza boxes is right on the money....
If you insist on the somewhat sloppy equating of entropy with "disorder" - it isn't that easy - another good example is to think of putting a baby elephant in a huge, sealed container and raising him to adulthood there. Yeah, the elephant will grow to be "more ordered," but think about the disorder he'll bring to his surroundings!

Jordo,If it's possible to make sugar out of carbon, hydrogen, & oxygen, then there's no reason to suspect greater complexity can't occur, or to put it thermodynamically, no reason to suspect greater decreases in entropy can occur. Sugar shouldn't be able to form if 2LOT presents a barrier to increasing complexity & decreasing entropy (not that 2LOT pertains to complexity in the slightest).Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Your right, the sun provides so much energy to the earth that it can afford to let some decay because of entropy. But all the energy in the universe means nothing if its not directed right. Just because the energys there doesnt mean complex things will develope. How is the suns energy sustaining evolution?

Gday Coragyps.
My dictionary (The Oxford) describes entropy as "a measure of the disorganization or degradation of the universe" (among other meanings of course, but hey thats the way our language works!)So thats the way i was using it. Yes the elephant will grow for a time but thats because its programmed into its DNA already. Im talking about totally new genes being written and organisms growing with the law of disorder over their heads.

Good God! We've been over this a million times already.

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Here is a link to the webpage of one of the top creationist organizations website telling their fellow creationists not to use this argument.This message has been edited by Jacen, 02-13-2005 10:25 AM

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People, please look at the Style Guide for EvC thread by Sylas. Pay particular attention to step 3.

Yes but sugar forming from already existing complex elements isnt impressive. The formation of THOSE original building blocks is. Im talking about the formation of the building blocks themselves.Although id rather just discuss biology for now and geology later, we can just discuss everything if you guys want. This is interesting stuff