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Author Topic:   Even Younger Earth Creationism
Dr Adequate
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Message 1 of 76 (394937)
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


* What Creationists Believe

Creationists believe that the universe was created thousands and thousands of years ago by a dog. This is where the word "dogma" comes from.

The idea of the universe made by a dog is so ridiculous that it is incredible that anyone would believe it. How could a dog make a universe with its little bitty paws?

As we shall show in the rest of this article, the idea that the Earth is "thousands and thousands" of years old is equally fantastic. It is in fact much, much younger.

* Soft Tissues In Dinosaur Bones

Dinosaur bones have been found with preserved soft tissue. How could this have been preserved for the Creationists' "thousands and thousands of years" after the Flood?

* Comets

Short orbit comets disintegrate after about 50 or 60 orbits about the sun. Creationist Richard Milton admits:

"Russian astronomer Professor S. K. Vsekhsviatsky, Director of the Kiev Observatory, has studied periodic comets extensively and written two standard works on the subject. He has come to the conclusion that they are losing their luminosity and the matter which constitutes them at such rapid rate that a comet will disintegrate completely within 50 to 60 revolutions of the solar system." (Richard Milton, The Facts of Life)

And Encke's comet has an orbital period of only 3.3 years (source: Encylopaedia Britannica. Using these figures, we can see that the Universe can't possibly be more than about 200 years old.

* "Thousands And Thousands Of Years" Is Unfalsifiable

One of the criteria for a theory to be scientific is that is must be "falsifiable". The "thousands and thousands of years" theory is unfalsifiable. I just thought I'd mention this before getting back to producing my proof that it's false. No, I have never been troubled by cognitive dissonance.

* Population Growth

Evolutionists and Creationists alike have a problem with population growth. As Darwin himself admitted:

The elephant is reckoned the slowest breeder of all known animals, and I have taken some pains to estimate its probable minimum rate of natural increase; it will be safest to assume that it begins breeding when thirty years old, and goes on breeding till ninety years old, bringing forth six young in the interval, and surviving till one hundred years old; if this be so, after a period of from 740 to 750 years there would be nearly nineteen million elephants alive descended from the first pair. (Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species

At that rate, if the Creationists figure of 4000 years after the Flood was correct, we can calculate that there would be about 2 x 1051 elephants now living. That's two thousand billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion elephants.

* Changes In Sea Level

In the Bay of Fundy, the sea level has been measured to fall at a rate of six to eight feet per hour. Extrapolating this back in time, we can see that even the tallest mountain in the world would have been completely submerged about 200 days ago. No animal life can have existed before that time, as the Creationists claim.

* No New Sorts Of Animals

Creationists such as Ken Ham claim that in the "thousands and thousands of years" after the "Flood", species diversified within the "kinds", one original pair of the "cat kind" giving rise to all the species of the cat family.

But no-one has ever seen a lion turning into a leopard, or a housecat giving birth to a lynx. One sort of animal cannot come from another. The definition of the word "sort" is left as an exercise for the reader.

* No Intermediate Forms

Moreover, creationists admit that they are unable to find and intermediate forms of the supposed transitional animals. As one Creationist admits: "The links just do not exist and have never existed." *

* Dinosaurs Are Still Roaming The Earth

According to Creationists, Dinosaurs were wiped out by the flood "thousands and thousands of years ago". But there are still dinosaurs alive today! Creationist Kent Hovind has admitted that he's seen a pterodactyl with his own eyes.

* Anatoly Formenko's Unclaimed Prize

The mathematician Anatoly Fomenko has offered a prize of $10,000 for anyone who can prove that there was any human civilization before the eleventh century. If Creationists are so certain of there "thousands and thousands of years", why don't they collect his prize?

* Gaps In The Theory

Creationists like to tell stories about people who supposedly lived "thousands and thousands of years" ago, such as "Augustus Caesar", but they can't even say what he liked for breakfast or what his favorite color was. How can we trust a theory with so many obvious gaps in it?

* No Evidence

Even evolutionists are forced to admit that there's no evidence for the "thousands and thousands of years". The evolutionists philosopher Bertrand Russell admitted in his book "Analysis of Mind" (1921) that there was no evidence that the world wasn't created five minutes ago.

"Nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago" - Bertrand Russell, The Analysis Of Mind

When even evolutionists are forced to admit that there's no evidence for the so-called "past", it seems strange that Young Earth Creationists cling on to their fairy-stories about "thousands and thousands of years".

* Repeatable Observations

Science is based on repeatable observations. But no-one has been able to repeat a time earlier than last Thursday, so it's unscientific to believe that it happened. Creationists say that it happened, but this is just dogmatic blind faith, because they didn't go there in a time machine.

* Creationists Admit The Earth Is Young

Many dogmatic believers in "thousands and thousands of years" have admitted that the Earth isn't thousands and thousands of years old. Do not think about that statement. Just don't. Top Creationists like Duane Gish have admitted that the Earth is young. "Thousands and thousands of years" is not young.

To see many examples of Creationists admitting that the Earth is young, consult my book In Their Own Words: Quote-Mining For Pleasure And Profit.

* Omphalos

Creationists claim that our "memories" of evients earlier than last Thursday are evidence that there was a time prior to last Thursday. This is just their interpretation of the so-called "mnemonic record", based on dogma and unprovable assumptions. They admit themselves that they think God made Adam and Eve fully grown and possessing navels, but then they scoff at the truth --- that the Flying Spaghetti Monster made us last Thursday fully grown and possessing memories. And any darn thing else I want to explain away.

* Dogmatism

In the light of the overwhelming evidence, you might wonder why Creationists refuse to accept the facts. The reason is simple. The facts above all prove that the Earth was created last Thursday by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and if they admitted that, they'd have to allow his Noodliness into their sinful hearts, and submit to the loving guidance of his Noodly Appendage.

The fact that they are so emphatic and dogmatic about their "thousands and thousands of years" shows that they are frightened of the truth. What other reason could there be?

* Teach Both Theories

Our children are being brainwashed in history class by being taught about events that happened "hundreds" or "thousands" of years ago. Spaghetti Monstrists feel that in the interests of balance and fairness, history teachers should give equal time to Last Thursdayism. After all, if Last Thursdayism is as "silly" as its critics claim, then what have they got to be afraid of?


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Message 2 of 76 (395397)
04-16-2007 11:04 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 3 of 76 (395619)
04-17-2007 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


But last Thursday, or last millenium, is not enough time for the events told in the Bible (which are of course, 100% true) to happen.

Thus, if science disagrees with the Bible, science needs to look at its data again.


Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!


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herrmann
Junior Member (Idle past 4461 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-22-2007


Message 4 of 76 (401951)
05-22-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


I will review each of your comments in order,

1.What creationists believe

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

so according to you, we are all made in the image of dogs. Also, who are you to say what others believe without evidence on the topic. So either we are all dogs which is clearly not the case, or your wrong about creationist beliefs.

2.Soft tissue in dinosaur bones

supposing what you claim is correct, (without source by the way), couldn't the fossils have allready been buried, it has been scientifically evident that soft tissue can be preserved almost indefinatlly in unoxygenated environments. Also, this relies on current forms of dating from radioactive material is accurate.

3.Comets

(http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032594/Enckes-Comet) Encke's comet was first observed in 1786 according to that study it should be dead by now.

4."Thousands And Thousands Of Years" Is Unfalsifiable
no proof

5.Population Growth

you are assuming that other species and environmental changes di not affect the population growth of the elephants. Also, with the elimination of some pretators, this value could have changed

6.Change in Sea Level

The bay of Fundy may not have existed at this time. Also, this is assuming that none of the water is replaced back into the Bay of Fundy

7.No new sorts of animals

I apoligize for my lack of sources here, but Microevolution evolution within species is not very debatable. Over time species can change, but they still cannot gain traits. It is true that a lion cannot turn into a leopard, but only because they are of a different genus.

8.No Intermediate Forms

in inter species microevolution, it is not neccessary for intermediate species. According to (http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v1i4f.htm) "When Darwin was on the Galapagos Islands, he correctly observed that some finches, which had been separated from other finches of the same species, had acquired distinctive characteristics (unusual beaks or feathers). He correctly concluded that these birds had evolved, in a particular sense of the word. They truly had undergone microevolution."

9 Dinosaurs Are Still Roaming The Earth

One witness is hardly evidence. I do not know the reply to this witness, but if this were so, there would be more witnesses of dinosaurs than there are.

10.Anatoly Formenko's Unclaimed Prize

no one would devout their life for $10,000.

11.Gaps In The Theory

creationists know what is needed to be known. Why does it matter what Augustus Caesar's favorite color was?

12. No Evidence

The evidence is simply the geneology given in the bible. A creationist belief is that the bible is infallible. Thus its geneology is given as the point of creation.

13.Repeatable Observations

so by that theory it is unscientific to think that any president before your birth did not exist

14. Creationists Admit The Earth Is Young

young is relative. A creationist could say the earth is young, thousands of years can be considered young relative to the lifetime of a star or such

15. Omphalos

a slight degree of faith is required for anything to be believed, thus believing you were created last Thursday means that your memories prior to last Thursday had no conscequences. Seing as the events prior to last further still affect you, they are, by all conventional means to have existed. A lack of proof on this spaghetti monster allows me to disbelieve its existance.

i wont bother answering the rest of this, its meaningless.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 5 of 76 (401952)
05-22-2007 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by herrmann
05-22-2007 9:47 PM


Welcome to the fray herrmann

What you are responding to is a parody of creationist beliefs.

I apoligize for my lack of sources here, but Microevolution evolution within species is not very debatable. Over time species can change, but they still cannot gain traits. It is true that a lion cannot turn into a leopard, but only because they are of a different genus.

Microevolution = evolution

A lion turning into a leopard is NOT evolution. Being in a different genus has nothing to do with it.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3839 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 6 of 76 (401955)
05-22-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


The idea that the world was created last thursday is completely ludicrous. What evidence do you have that we were not created only 5 seconds ago?

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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 524
Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 7 of 76 (401957)
05-23-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by fallacycop
05-22-2007 11:17 PM


It should be obvious to the meanist intelligence that creation has not yet occurred! It is not due for another 1,375 years. All that's happening now is the gathering of the memories that will be pre-existing at the time of creation. (Gathering memories doesn't happen overnight, you know.)

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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2812 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 8 of 76 (401969)
05-23-2007 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


in the begining was the voice and it said
" em err you know im still not sure this is a good idea , oh well nothing ventured nothing gained , now where did i put the user manual , arrh ok ..LET ...."
some non-time later
" well lets hope for the best , but i still think it will all end in tears you know "

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herrmann
Junior Member (Idle past 4461 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-22-2007


Message 9 of 76 (403644)
06-04-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
05-22-2007 9:57 PM


quote:
Microevolution = evolution

A lion turning into a leopard is NOT evolution. Being in a different genus has nothing to do with it.

Enjoy.


yes, well microevolution does not contradict creationist beliefs.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20263
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 10 of 76 (403698)
06-04-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by herrmann
06-04-2007 4:26 PM


yes, well microevolution does not contradict creationist beliefs.

Nor does macroevolution.

Where the problem arises is not in their being evolution and common ancestors, but how far back in time it goes and how many starting forms of life were involve.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2312 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 11 of 76 (403734)
06-04-2007 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


Doc`s theory
Oh, Doc, you`re such a tease. :D

Guess this means we have to count the 'sorts' on the Ark.

Btw, you forgot the essential rider: If you don`t believe me, you`ll go straight to hell. Wherever it is.
And, whenever.

Edited by Nighttrain, : Tidying up


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Damouse
Member (Idle past 3224 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 12 of 76 (403933)
06-05-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by fallacycop
05-22-2007 11:17 PM


quote:
The idea that the world was created last thursday is completely ludicrous. What evidence do you have that we were not created only 5 seconds ago?

exactly.

:)

Its called external world skepticism, and its not ludicrous. You have no way of knowing that you are not dreaming right now (a la decartes). There is absolutly no way for you to know if you are dreaming, because in a dream you do not know you are dreaming. There is absolutly nothing that you could do that you could not dream (ive always wondered how dreaming fits into this. if youre dreaming, can you dream??). The only thing that you cant dream is being dead (again, according to descartes). Hell, you would have no way of knowing you exist (you could be someone elses figment) if you couldnt think (i think, therefore i am). And from here, its only a stretch to consider memory. You would have absolutly no way of knowing if your memories really happened or if ten seconds ago you were created with all of your memories, because your memories is just sensory information filed away, and even thought is just a hard copy of an abstract concept held in storage. Its the same with hallucination. You remember it, but it didnt really happen.

:D


This statement is false.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 796 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 13 of 76 (403937)
06-05-2007 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Damouse
06-05-2007 10:29 PM


How do you know you know all this?:rolleyes:

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 3224 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 14 of 76 (403946)
06-05-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by bluegenes
06-05-2007 10:53 PM


oh dont give me thaaaat. read some philosophy, especially descartes and remember, i didnt come up with it. if youd take time to think about it, its a given. the only thing that gets you out of the scenario is faith that you truely, do really exist.

theres a syndrome where you think that everyone is a figment of your imagination, the name doesnt come to mind.


This statement is false.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1917 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 15 of 76 (403968)
06-06-2007 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-14-2007 12:59 AM


Those proud, rebellious YECs
Dr Adequate:

The facts above all prove that the Earth was created last Thursday by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and if [creationists] admitted that, they'd have to allow his Noodliness into their sinful hearts, and submit to the loving guidance of his Noodly Appendage.

Yes, and this brings us to the real question, doesn't it, Dr A? Why are Creationists so tragically devoted to their proud spirit of rebellion?

There can be only one explanation: they fear having to answer to an authority higher than themselves. Instead of empty talk of their imaginary deity, whom they create in their own image, they would have to change their lives and submit to the will of a real, living, active sentient blob of pasta.

And that can be very, very frightening to a lot of people.

Our children are being brainwashed in history class by being taught about events that happened "hundreds" or "thousands" of years ago. Spaghetti Monstrists feel that in the interests of balance and fairness, history teachers should give equal time to Last Thursdayism. After all, if Last Thursdayism is as "silly" as its critics claim, then what have they got to be afraid of?

Indeed. Why not present all theories side by side and let students decide for themselves? Let them choose. Would they rather learn four billion years of natural history? Six thousand years of natural history? Or a few days?

Students will appreciate the fact that, as the world was only created last Thursday, speaking the truth means they have much less history to learn. This allows them all the more time to contemplate the infinite majesty of His Noodliness!


Behold the scent of his garlic on the breeze,
the blessings he showers upon us like grated parmesan cheese.
Behold how he walks with us, hand-in-noodle,
every day of our lives...
for almost a week now.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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