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Author | Topic: Rejecting Intelligent Design as Possibly Science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
commike37 Inactive Member |
If one claims that intelligent design can't possibly be science, even if God exists, then problems will result. Disallowing consideration of a theory of intelligent design has two fundamental problems. (note: I'm not talking about rejecting ID as weak science, I'm talking about rejecting ID because it can only be philosophy/theology, and not science)
1. It corrupts the scientific method. In theory, the scientific method works independent of any outside influences. However, rejecting intelligent design will bring an outside influence on the scientific method. Namely, it assumes that the scientific method can not possibly prove intelligent design, but there is no experimental or scientific data to back this claim up.2. It assumes the metaphysical and physical realms are mutually exclusive. This basically means that God does not interact at all in the physical realm, and therefore there is no evidence of intelligent design. Such an assumption should be readily rejected.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: If the scientific method is to be used, then the theory needs to be testable. So, for ID to be science, you need to show how it is testable. Science rejects ID because it is not testable, it doesn't make testable predictions, and it relies solely on the subjective opinion of the observer. For instance, "the eye is too complex to have evolved" is a major violation of the scientific method. Firstly, I am not able to measure "complexity", so it can't be tested. Secondly, I can't test nor falsify what people think is "too complex". Thirdly, it doesn't predict what life would look like if it weren't designed. How are we supposed to know what is designed if we don't know what life would look like if it weren't?
quote: The scientific method requires that evidence be objectively testable and repeatable. As soon as God is objectively testable and repeatable He will be included into science.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If by ID you mean Intellegnt Design can be dismissed simply because all of the evidence refutes it and there is no evidence to support it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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CK Member (Idle past 4154 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Now be fair Jar - they do mention it in the classroom now:
York Daily Record
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Be nice or we'll export this looniness to the UK!
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6380 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
Too late.
There are at least two schools in Britain teaching this crap already. See this link for a taste . Note these are not private schools, they are mostly state funded but independently run. Confused ? You will be...
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CK Member (Idle past 4154 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
They have tried to open more but have been stopped in their tracks in a number of places. It's the same foundation in all cases.
Here is what the bishop of oxford had to say about the matter: Not only is young earth creationism bad science. It is also lousy theology. Literalistic young earth creationism is an insult to God, suggesting that he would arbitrarily and capriciously break his own exquisite laws whenever it suited him. Worse, the evidence for the fact of evolution is so knockdown overwhelming that we can reconcile it with young earth creationism only by assuming that God deliberately planted false evidence, in the rocks and in the genetic molecules, to trick us. Could a cruder blasphemy be imagined?- Bishop of Oxford. This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-20-2005 21:18 AM This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-20-2005 21:18 AM
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I'm sorry for the UK! Unfortunately, the creos have been targeting schools in at least 43 states so far, with only very limited success. They tend to target small rural schools as their school boards are such easy targets.
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6380 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
It's the same foundation in all cases. Yeah. I'd never buy a used car from him... Confused ? You will be...
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
Right on my man! LOL
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CK Member (Idle past 4154 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Read the whole letter here Ned:
Page not found » Humanists UK I wonder who will be the first to decry him as "not a true christian" Literalistic young earth creationism is an insult to God, suggesting that he would arbitrarily and capriciously break his own exquisite laws whenever it suited him. Worse, the evidence for the fact of evolution is so knockdown overwhelming that we can reconcile it with young earth creationism only by assuming that God deliberately planted false evidence, in the rocks and in the genetic molecules, to trick us. Could a cruder blasphemy be imagined? The Bishop of Oxford
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
"Science rejects ID because it is not testable, it doesn't make testable predictions, and it relies solely on the subjective opinion of the observer."
I would argue that not only is ID testable, but that we have been testing ID for some time, and may go as far as to duplicate ID, the direct engineering of reality, and thus prove in the lab ID, as much as can be. But to explain how Intelligent Design has been tested, one has to realize that the basics for this testing were not done to test ID. In the field of quantum physics, we were just testing for the fundamental behaviour and make-up for particles, and there accidentally discovered what should be the basics of Intelligent Design. First, we discovered that matter does not self-exist, and does not exist in any one form at all without consciousness, or the potential for consciousness being present or could be present at some future events. There was some debate for decades about this interpretation, but clever experiments have indeed shown that it is not just the act of observation that causes what has been termed the collapsing of the wave function, but the mere threat of observation prior to any real observation has had this effect. Thus, the concept of a direct and determinative effect of consciousness upon the physical universe is about as well-proven as anything can be in science of this nature, and certainly far more proven than things like the theory of common descent. This wave/particle duality is at the heart of quantum physics and has now been demonstrated for much larger objects such as atoms, some molecules, and buckyballs, and even objects as large as planets have demonstrated wave-like properties. Secondly, many physicists are claiming that the essential and fundamental property of all particles and things is information, and when you think of it existing as potentials for forms such as a wave or particle, then it becomes clear that this information exists apart from what we thought of as space-time, which explains the superluminal transfer of information that takes place through the next principle, entanglement. Third, we have the principle of entanglement within quantum physics, which incidentally probably eclipses the whole concept of the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, and we see superluminal effects, action at a distance, which suggests a structure within the universe more complex than our old Newtonian observations indicated. So beyond what we have considered in the past as normal space-time, we see consciousness and information as the root of matter interacting and entangled very much as various spiritual traditions have claimed all along. Intelligent Design presumes intelligence exists in a higher Consciousness. God Himself may be beyond our instruments and testing, but His interaction and the creative process may well have become part of the creation, and thus subject to the musings and tests of hard science. I see the basic principles of quantum physics as hard experimental data lending strong evidence for Intelligent Design. Edit to add: I forgot another basic principle, which basically is that anything is possible as a matter of law or principle. For example, old science would say that if you throw a ball against a wall, it will bounce back or cave in the wall, that this is a scientific fact proven by repeated experiments, such as throwing the ball against a wall 1000 times. Quantum physics states this is false, that it only appears to be a law that the ball must bounce back or cave in the wall. In fact, quantum physics states it is law that the ball always has a slight chance, very small, of just going straight through the wall without seeming to even touch it! In other words, miracles can always happen according to science. To claim the extremely rare, and seemingly impossible, is unscientific is actually to be unscientific. To claim such things are possible and do happen is now the only real scientific claim. Quantum physics has turned traditional science on it's head, but it remarkably consistent with what various spiritual traditions have said all along. In the ball example, it would be a rare event indeed for such a large object to go through the wall out the other side without seeming to touch the wall (unless perhaps one learns how to manipulate the process), but it happens all the time with subatomic particles. This message has been edited by randman, 05-26-2005 09:46 PM
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: |
The idea of an observation collapsing a wave function is just on interpretation of QM. As I understand it the general picture is not now that there has to be an "observation" in the sense of a sentient being observing. Any interaction can cause the wave function to collapse.
The idea of a wave function is, in any case, simply a mathematical formulation. The various interpretations of this as it applies to the behavior of matter and energy are more speculation than anything else. This idea of a sentient observer being necessary for things to come into existance is not a consequence of any physics. It is speculation and it is also somewhat garbeled speculation on the part of many non-physicists who are grasping at straws. You comment on information will not be comprehensible until you define what you mean by information in clear, precise terms. The rest of your post descends further into pseudo-physics that has, in my opinion, no basis in any science.
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