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Author Topic:   Take the state out of the schools!!!!!
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 107 (26349)
12-11-2002 6:50 PM


Alot has been made in the past of the seperation of Church and state. Also on taking church out of schools. Well I believe the state should be removed from schools. I propose that education should be owned operated and funded by the parents. Remove the state completely! How many of us trust politicians? Why would we trust them with the minds of our children?

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saved by grace


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by gene90, posted 12-11-2002 7:02 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1996 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 2 of 107 (26350)
12-11-2002 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by funkmasterfreaky
12-11-2002 6:50 PM


Basically, you suggest that education be carried out by private organizations?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-11-2002 6:50 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

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 Message 3 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-11-2002 7:08 PM gene90 has not yet responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 107 (26351)
12-11-2002 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by gene90
12-11-2002 7:02 PM


No what I was suggesting is that children be schooled by their parents/whoever there parents would have school them. It's not up to the state anyways. Those children do not belong to them. Let the parents raise and teach their children the way it was meant to be.

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-11-2002 9:07 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 107 (26364)
12-11-2002 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by funkmasterfreaky
12-11-2002 7:08 PM


What you are (realistically) suggesting is more input from the locally elected school councils. This already occurs in some regions doesn't it? And in some schools in the USA creation can be taught alongside evolution. With a particualrly slanted school baord one could probably even ban macroevolution. True?

The real issue is that one is up against democray. IN the USA, andnowhere else really, it is possible to have a mojity of 6-day creation believers. I prefer the idea of a good Christian school rather than relyingon conveniently slanted majorities.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:15 AM Tranquility Base has not yet responded

Karl
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 107 (26381)
12-12-2002 3:13 AM


And how exactly do parents do that when both parents are required to work to make ends meet?

[Bleeding Heart Liberal Pinko Commie Bastard Rant]

I love it when conservatives bang on about the evils of the minimum wage, and how we should be willing to work for peanuts, and then berate working mothers who have to work because their husbands' pay is so crap! I love it when they then tell them that they should educate their own kids, rather than be out there providing for them. And I love it when they call them feckless when they can't provide, and try to take welfare away. Got you whichever way you turn.

[/Bleeding Heart Liberal Pinko Commie Bastard Rant]

I'm bloody glad I wasn't home schooled. My parents knew nothing about science, computing, mathematics and so on. I'd have missed out on all that.

Education, provided by trained, knowledgeable and skillful educators, is a wonderful thing*. Why are creationists really against it, I wonder?

*I'm well aware this doesn't always happen in the state system. But it's definitely not going to happen if the only teacher is one's parent.


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by edge, posted 12-12-2002 11:39 PM Karl has not yet responded

edge
Member
Posts: 4608
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 6 of 107 (26469)
12-12-2002 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Karl
12-12-2002 3:13 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
I'm bloody glad I wasn't home schooled. My parents knew nothing about science, computing, mathematics and so on. I'd have missed out on all that.

Just think, you came that close to being a YEC.

quote:
Education, provided by trained, knowledgeable and skillful educators, is a wonderful thing*. Why are creationists really against it, I wonder?

They are not just against it. They require an uneducated mass of population in order to survive.


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 Message 5 by Karl, posted 12-12-2002 3:13 AM Karl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 1:00 AM edge has not yet responded
 Message 76 by Brad McFall, posted 12-22-2002 12:46 AM edge has not yet responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 107 (26471)
12-13-2002 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by edge
12-12-2002 11:39 PM


I understand that this sounds ridiculous. I also know that things would have to drastically change in order to make this idea work. However I am highly in favour of the old mentor/apprentice system. This would only require the parents to give their children basic skills like math, science basics as well as language and history. I have found that you cannot force anyone to learn anything. This is what the school system attempts to do. Force feed you knowledge screaming at you the whole time that your life depends on this.

Now wouldn't it be better if parents just gave their children the basic knowledge they need. Teach them to think! This way they can learn what they need from there, knowing the basics, they can learn what they need/want to from there.

The old practice of mentoring would enable people to choose the career they would like to pursue, and learn practically using this thinking ability they learned from their parents.

I think overall it would result in a more educated happier population.

------------------
saved by grace


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 94 by reefmonkey, posted 02-11-2003 5:09 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4648 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 107 (26477)
12-13-2002 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 1:00 AM


Hi Funkmasterfreaky,
One problem with your proposal is it rests on the assumption that parents are educated enough themselves to be qualified mentors. Even an educated parent may not be well enough versed in different subjects to teach them. In many subjects today, children will be better informed than their parents. Especially in fields where there is rapid development i.e. biological sciences.

cheers,
M


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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 107 (26481)
12-13-2002 5:38 AM


You seem to think that learning is something one can do simply by reading books. Trained educators will tell you that it's more complicated than that. It's not just a case of learning to think. Besides, what makes you think that teaching someone to think is something any parent can do?
Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Chara, posted 12-13-2002 12:28 PM Karl has not yet responded

Chara
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 107 (26506)
12-13-2002 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Karl
12-13-2002 5:38 AM


*rant* *backspace* *big breath*

As a home educator for the last seven years, I can't help but take offense to some of the comments made in this thread. Our family has chosen homeschooling as a lifestyle. We've made a lot of sacrifices so that I could stay home, but I do not expect every family to do the same.

Education is far more than feeding children facts. Education is teaching people (not just children) how to think, and how to learn for themselves.

My children have taken Provincial Achievement Tests (which all schools, public and private, participate in) and have always scored in the above average range.


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 Message 9 by Karl, posted 12-13-2002 5:38 AM Karl has not yet responded

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John
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 107 (26507)
12-13-2002 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chara
12-13-2002 12:28 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
As a home educator for the last seven years, I can't help but take offense to some of the comments made in this thread. Our family has chosen homeschooling as a lifestyle.

Never having tried to homeschool a child, I can't comment from that perspective. However, I have known a great many teachers-- my sister is one-- both in High School and after, and I must conclude that home schooling can't possibly be worse that the travesty that passes for education in this country.

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www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 2:25 PM John has responded

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 107 (26514)
12-13-2002 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John
12-13-2002 12:38 PM


Karl, I've heard this argument before that parents aren't smart enough to educate their children. I don't buy that. I didn't say that it had to be just the parents either. A wise parent knows when to allow someone else to teach about something they don't know. Although I think just about any parent should be able to teach their children the basics in math, science and history, language.

The mentor/apprentice thing I guess is more in the choosing of work, after or during their education young adults can begin to apprentice for whatever type of work they think they would like to do. Now if we found that colleges/universities were needed for some job training then we should have this available.

I wonder at the necessity of this though it would seem to me that on the job training is much more useful. Even in todays system no-one wants to hire someone straight out of university. They'd rather hire in someone who has real experience. Not just "book smarts".

So I just suggest parents hone their childs ability to think and reason, giving them basic skills and information they need. Then train them on the job for what ever field of work they are interested in.

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:38 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 5:59 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 23 by John, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1996 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 13 of 107 (26532)
12-13-2002 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky
12-13-2002 2:25 PM


The problem with expecting most parents to be able to teach science is that a lot of Americans, including science teachers don't seem to know enough about science.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 2:25 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-13-2002 6:11 PM gene90 has not yet responded
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 107 (26536)
12-13-2002 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by gene90
12-13-2002 5:59 PM


See with the science education all you really need to give them is an understanding of the scientific process, as well as basic principles. If you are teaching your child how to think they can use this process to understand science. I know lately, now that I have an understanding of how the scientific process works, that I understand science alot more. Once you know how to form a hypothesis, and how to test it you're set, providing you know how to think as opposed to just regurgitating information. Teach them how to use this tool. Whether or not you as a parent have extensive knowledge of the current scientific developments you can still teach the process.

------------------
saved by grace


This message is a reply to:
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Chara
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 107 (26540)
12-13-2002 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by gene90
12-13-2002 5:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
The problem with expecting most parents to be able to teach science is that a lot of Americans, including science teachers don't seem to know enough about science.

You are absolutely right gene ... so who do you trust your children to? A teacher who doesn't know about science, who may or may not care that she does, or a parent who loves their child and desires for them to get the best education they can get, and is willing to do the work to make sure they do.

I am more than willing to admit that I don't know everything about everything, but I've spent many late nights studying, so that I can stay one step ahead. And there's nothing wrong with saying, "well, you know what? I don't know .... let's find out together."


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Replies to this message:
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