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Author Topic:   International Aspects of Creationism/ID
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 79 (207647)
05-13-2005 4:54 AM


One of the thing I liked about Europe is that it always seemed a bit secular, and one could have conversations about scientific issues of evolution without someone asking why the apes were still around. Indeed most Europeans I knew got a bit snobby and said creationism was just a US problem.

Unfortunately there were growing signs of an evangelical seige of Europe (and Netherlands in specific) over the last few years, and finally it appears the ramparts have been breached.

In the Netherlands a headmaster of a school was upset that any teacher would advocate evolution. This came as a shock to the teachers, and he has agreed to stay away from the school to let things "cool off."

According to him...

a teacher cannot simply state to his or her class that man descended from an ape. "People have to explain how evolution theory relates to Christian belief,"

Is this happening anywhere else in the world, and is it a growing trend? If so, is there a reason to be concerned and more action taken by those who support science over a return to mysticism (or earlier scientific practices)?


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AdminBen
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Message 2 of 79 (207648)
05-13-2005 4:55 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2758 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 3 of 79 (207715)
05-13-2005 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
05-13-2005 4:54 AM


=IRELAND=

Here it's virtually unknown. Period.

Heck, I didn't even know people were still into the whole creationism thing until someone showed me EvCForum. Up to that point I thought it had disappeared sometime around the 19th century, when people started to get a clue about science.

AiG UK came to my university a while ago, and I managed to catch them after their lecture... their exact words were something along the lines of "We just want people to think about the meaning of the Bible..."

In fairness I think if they came out all guns blazing, saying that Evolution was wrong and only the Bible was the literal truth, they'd be (a) laughed at, or (b) "escorted" off the campus...

The Rock Hound


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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3354 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 4 of 79 (207721)
05-13-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
05-13-2005 4:54 AM


Could it be that Europeans are just too weary of American enthusiasm such that they simply refuse to alter the conclusion that politically at least has already been effected in this node of this Earth. Could it not just be that no one over there has thought this out below like I am doing.
“A few things could now be added concerning a certain very subtle spirit pervading gross bodies and lying hidden I them;”INEWTON

Is it noHidden in the difference of the angiosperm and gymnosperm tori as taxogenic dielectrics of its ontogeny and cladistics in Earth’s gravity.BSM

“by its force and actions, the particles of bodies attract at very small distances and cohere when they become contiguous ; and electrical [i.e. electrified] bodies act at greater distances, “INEWTON

The force is thermal(electric) currents caused by sun heating differences between the top and bottom of the plant relative to gravity which effects capillary forces IN THE CELLS where without adaptations to the currents the Gladyshev monoheirarchy only retains the place contiguous to the capillary force between the different effects of the gas (air)and the liquid (water) electrotonically (chemical acid base ionically supramoleculary) no matter the solids (minerals etc) sustained during growth and development but as soon as selection for electrified bodies fit to the physics of temperature dependent thermal currents, larger distances are reached in the form of the plant, speciation is a causal possibility in the contiguity of the genes revolved in the meantime by the Sun’s gravity. Gibbs minimization equilibrates this stage in the bifurcation of the clades rotated in the process. BSM

“repelling as well as attracting neighboring corpuscles; and ligh is emitted, relflected, refracted, inflected, and heats bodies; and all sensation is exicited,”INEWTON

The ability of the electric heritability enables the genes to be LIFTED over the quantuam mechanical barrier of the dielectric properties because of repulsion but it is the higher order population genetics that reverse information flows where without the shifting balance the no engineer could build by a physical teleology alone. This enables the neiboring correlations to posses not only a stationary macrothermodyamnic aspect but also a mobile one where the chemicals participating are not trapped but moved by variable cavitations of air during speciation time and deme diversification.BSM

“and the limbs of animals move at command of the will, namly by the vibrations of this spirit being propogated thought the soild fibers of the nerves from the external organs of sense to the brain and from the brain to the muscles.”INEWTON

Further ideas about leaf physiology are incumbent. Certainly Dostal’s determinations if only reflective at this reading are not unrelated.It is entirely imaginable to suspect that with both pressure and voltage differences across the Frohlich SPHERE (as the torus) that analytic chemistry can develop a new department of organic analysis based on genetically enginerred contols of the potentials across levels of organizations. If woodyneess can be deconstructed so as to permit wood in the leaf and still remit photons suffienent tosustain development (given that such are grown) then a new taxa of plants might be designed to survive in extremely cold environements (poles, mars) provided the thermal currents are able to sustain the fitness to the plan given the decreased photonic receptivity both by the form and the location relative to the sun. This might indeed offer an intellectual response to the social issue of biology’s failure to address its past eugenical excesses sans economics. We would be what we eat. Let us add a little bark to the diet.BSM

“but these things cannot be explained in a few words; furthermore there is not a sufficient number of experiments to determine and demonstrate the laws governing the actions of this spirit.”INEWTON

ibchohen

quote:

The final paragraph of the General Scholium has attracted much scholarly attention, notably in an effort to discern what Newton intended (in the opening and closing sentences) by a “spirit” which may be operative in various types of phenomena. It might even appear that Newton was here introducing a speculation – we dare not call it a hypothesis – although Newton’s actual language indicates that for him there was no question about whether this spirit “really” exists, only about the laws according to which this spirit acts”
quote:
”We may readily understand why Newton omitted to carry out either the revision or the proposed cancellation of the final paragraph. By the time that the third edition was fully printed, in about February 1726, Newton and Pemberton had spent several years revising the text and reading the proofs and Newton was a little more than a year of his death. When Newton reached the last paragraph he was probably so weary that he overlooked his proposed alteration of the conclusion.”

Can this change to the Frolich statement(not included in this post) modified by applications of electrotonics to macrothermodynamics no matter the hierachical thermodynamics not find this last elasticity of the spirit?BSM

ibcohen

quote:
“One possible reason why Newton decided not to insert the qualifying phrase “electric and elastic” into the text of the third edition (1726) is that in his interleaved copy of the second edition he has finally drawn a line through the whole paragraph, showing his intention of deleting it in the third edition. The reason for this decision seems to be that some time after 1713 Newton lost his enthusiasm for electricity as a possible agent in gravitation.”

Could we find the means to genetically engineering large tracts of small woody plants to populate the tundra and possibly Mars providing new food sources for man’s growing population such that the design is altered for the difference in gravity on the two planents??BSM

ibcohen

quote:
“ A puzzle relating to the interpretation of this “spirit” is the appearance of thqualifiying adjectives “electric and elastic” introduced in the original Motte translation and retained in the Motte- Cajori version…”
there is more in criticism...

BSM
If so, then the effect of freeszing and thawing in the vincity of surviving plants provides the environs in which the electric affect of the temperature difference can sustain the geneitic passage to a new construction of plants where man is not currently present. In short, man would have come to look at today’s modern deciduous and gymnosperm TREES as dinosaurs of yesterpopular year. Whether electricity is an “agent” of gravity depends on the heritibile information in aliens if they exist.

The quotes were from Cohen's edition of Newton's Principia


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jar
Member
Posts: 31675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 5 of 79 (207735)
05-13-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
05-13-2005 4:54 AM


We had another thread on this just a week or so ago.

Classic YEC Creationism is alive and well in Canada, the US, Indonesia, Australia, Japan, Turkey and to some extent in Europe.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 6 of 79 (207742)
05-13-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
05-13-2005 11:57 AM


Where was the thread? I looked first and didn't see one, and I just looked again and still didn't see one. Was it an actual thread or a subthread?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4141 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 79 (207743)
05-13-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by IrishRockhound
05-13-2005 9:46 AM


I find this interesting as Ireland seems gripped by religious issues. Is there a difference say between the Catholics and Protestants on this, or is it really as a whole, creationism is rejected?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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jar
Member
Posts: 31675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 8 of 79 (207744)
05-13-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
05-13-2005 12:18 PM


Yes, IIRC it was a thread. I haven't found it yet myself. Likely Moose will step in and pull it out his ... and make us all look stupid. It was titled something like "Is Creationism strictly a US phenomina" or such.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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paisano
Member (Idle past 4744 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 9 of 79 (207753)
05-13-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
05-13-2005 12:20 PM


My impression from people I know who are familiar with Ireland was Northern Ireland (the UK part) has a lot of creationist Protestants. The Republic of Ireland is almost totally Catholic and the RCC has largely made its peace with theistic evolution, although there are a small minority of creationist Catholics.

However as an Italian American Catholic I have no first hand information and this could be incorrect.


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3775
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 10 of 79 (207759)
05-13-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
05-13-2005 12:22 PM


The lost topic
It was titled something like "Is Creationism strictly a US phenomina" or such.

Is creationism a predominantly US phenomenon?

It got filed under "Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution".

If anyone wishes to send money, just e-mail me, and I'll supply my snail-mail address. :)

Moose


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jar
Member
Posts: 31675
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 79 (207761)
05-13-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Minnemooseus
05-13-2005 1:11 PM


Re: The lost topic
Check's in the mail.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Alasdair
Member (Idle past 4071 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 12 of 79 (207823)
05-13-2005 3:10 PM


When I moved to America from good 'ol Airstrip one, I was amazed that Americans actually reject evolutionary theory to the extent that they do. I mean, back home, most people couldn't tell you what a "Creationist" is, and even some of my religious nutter relatives are shocked at creationism in America.

Does anybody know why this is the case in the US and nowhere else in the industrialised world?


Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3354 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 13 of 79 (207875)
05-13-2005 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Alasdair
05-13-2005 3:10 PM


Could it be that US teaching had been more GOD GIVEN and less aposteriori based? Is it possible that Europeans assimilated more of Herbartianism than Americans at an earlier date?? I dont know. Could it be that Kantianism by default is putting US education in a better position now that we still can experience both(since the 60s)???

quote:
John Friedrich Herbart, the founder of this movement in education, was born at Oldenburg in 1776, and died at Gottengen in 1841. He labored seven years at Gottingen at the beginning of his career as professor, and a similiar period at its close. But the longest period of his university teaching was at Koningsburg where, for twenty-five years, he occupied the chair of philsophy made famous before him by Kant.
The Elements of General Method Based on The Principles of Herbart by Charles McMurry 1901, Bloomington Ill, Public-School Publishing Company.

quote:
Kant, with many other psychologists, gives greater prominence to the orginial powers of the mind, to the innate ideas, by means of which it recieves and works over the crude materials furnished by the senses. The difference between Kant and Herbart in interpreting the process of apperception is an index of a radical difference in their pedagogical standpoints. With Kant, apperception is the assimilation of the raw materials of knowledge through the fundamental categories of thought (quality, quantity, relation, modality, etc.) Kant's categories of thought are original properties of the mind; they recieve the crude materials of sense-perception and give them form and meaning. With Herbart, the ideas gained through experience are the apperceiveing power in interpreting new things. Practically, the difference between Kant and Herbart is important. For Kant gives controlling influence to innate ideas in the process of acquisition. Our capacity for learning depends not so much upon the results of experience and thought stored in the mind, as upon original powers, unaided and unsupported by experience. With Herbart, on the contrary, great stress is laid upon the acquired fund of empirical knowledge as a means of increasing one's stores, of more rapidly receiveing and assimiliating new ideas.
opcitp217

Are not these the powers protected by the US BILL OF RIGHTS?Can not the euro currency be jokingly referred to by this 'fund'? Is not european sequestration of means to facilitate biodiveristy informatics by captial control of the fastest critical infrastructure rather not slowing down the move to Earth sustainability???

what would need to change to change the 44% americans still skeptical
http://www.icr.org/headlines/skeptical44.html


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 14 of 79 (207906)
05-13-2005 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by paisano
05-13-2005 12:52 PM


When WILLOWTREE was still around I was engaged in a thread that involved many loony ideas, one of which was that the Red Hand symbol of Ulster is derived from the Bible.

While digging around for information on this I found references that suggest parts of the Orange Order (a very significant organisation on the Protestant/Loyalist side) and related churches are very strong Biblical literalists and/or inerrantists and creationists.

Dr. Ian Paisley (leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, which is now the largest Unionist party in Northern Ireland) is an extreme anti-Catholic creationist. His Doctorate is actually an honorary degree from Bob Jones University - which if I remember correctly from my time in the States should tell you something.


09/04/05 - Sharks attacked
30/04/05 - Wasps swatted
14/05/05 - More of the same ?

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Alasdair
Member (Idle past 4071 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 15 of 79 (207921)
05-13-2005 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brad McFall
05-13-2005 6:08 PM


Sorry Brad, but I'm not sure what that rant (I think it was a rant, correct me if I'm wrong) was all about...

So I'm going to have a look at that ICR article :)

ICR says:

quote:
One. Provide one bona-fide piece of evidence that indicates it is possible to transform one creature into a fundamentally different kind of creature.

Chlorella V:

quote:
Coloniality in Chlorella vulgaris
Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella.

Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.



(I "stole" this from Crashfrog in a thread relating to this.

ICR:

quote:
Two. Demonstrate a single convincing succession that documents steps by which one fossil creature has changed into one of a fundamentally different kind.

Talk Origins:

quote:

Click to enlarge

ICR:

quote:
Three. Please, please, deal with the origin of information.

Abiogenesis isn't part of evolutionary theory. And so far, just because it's still being worked on doesn't invalidate evolution in any way. (I'm sure somebody can provide a better answer :D)

All in all, I'd say that those aren't the REAL reasons that 44% of Yanks reject evolutionary theory :P

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 05-13-2005 10:01 PM


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