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Author Topic:   Request for Carbon-14 Dating explanation
Justin Clark
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 74 (106011)
05-06-2004 5:13 PM


Carbon-14 Dating Explained
I have listened to numerous interprtations of carbon dating, and from my understanding this is the biggest evidence against creation. I would be very grateful to anyone who could explain carbon dating and give a rational explanation on how you can test the accuracy of this when it spans such a great distance. I apologize before hand for my ignorance and will be thankful to anyone who replys.
(edited by AdminNosy to change title from "The Search for knowledge" to "Carbon-14 Dating Explained" )
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-06-2004 04:33 PM

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 3 of 74 (106023)
05-06-2004 5:35 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum. Title also changed by AdminSylas.
This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-06-2004 05:40 PM

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 4 of 74 (106050)
05-06-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Justin Clark
05-06-2004 5:13 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
Well, C-14 dating isn't really my thing, but I'll try to get the ball rolling.
First, it's hard to say that any one thing is "the biggest evidence" against young Earth creationism (YEC), because there's just so many widely varying and powerful lines of evidence that contradict YEC. But C-14 dating is one of those powerful lines of evidence.
Second, I'm not sure how much you do know, so I'll start real simple. Apologies if it's too simple.
The basic story is that cosmic rays hit nitrogen in the upper atmosphere and convert it to C-14, a radioactive isotope of carbon. This C-14 mixes throughout the atmosphere, plants take it in and incorporate it into their tissues, things that eat plants do the same, things that eat things that eat plants do the same, and all these things have the same percentage of C-14 in their bodies that is in the atmosphere at the time. When these organisms die, they stop taking in carbon of any kind, the C-14 slowly decays back to nitrogen, the non-radioactive C-12 stays as C-12, so the ratio of C-14 to C-12 slowly decreases. We can measure this ratio for things that are less than about 50,000 years old (any older than that and there's too little C-14 to measure).
But there are some potential problems.
First, if the dead organism ate or otherwise incorporated some carbon from a source with a different C-14 to C-12 ratio as there was in the atmosphere at the time, that throws things off. The classic example of this is marine organisms, such as clams, and things that eat marine organisms, such as seals. The marine organisms get a significant amount of their carbon from "old carbon", like dissolved limestone, which has no C-14 to speak of, and this makes their C-14 to C-2 ratio much smaller than it would be if they got their carbon from the atmosphere. There's no way around this problem; clams and seals and such cannot be dated by C-14. However, it's pretty easy to avoid trying to date such things. (Creationists love to parade examples of such dates as evidence of problems with C-14 dating in general, but the only source of such dates is scientists testing to make sure we really know what kinds of things to avoid trying to date). Dating dry-land plants and animals is pretty safe.
Another potential problem, and perhaps what you are talking about in the original post, is calibration. We can measure the ratio of C-14 to C-12 in an organic specimen today ... but we cannot directly measure the C-14 to C12 ratio as it was when the organism died. For example, with totally made-up and unrealistic numbers, let's pretend that we measure a C-14 to C-12 ratio of a piece of wood, and it's 0.1. Let's also pretend that we magically know that the atmospheric C-14 to C-12 ratio when the tree died was 0.2. Then the sample has lost half its C-14 since it died, and it died one half-life ago (5,730 years ago).
But, of course, we don't magically know the C-14 to C-12 ratio when the organism died! We could (but we do not) assume that the C-14 to C-12 ratio when the organism died was the same as it is in the atmosphere today; but that would lead to imprecise dates with errors of unknown size and other generally yucky situations that scientists don't like at all. So we calibrate C-14 against other things that we can date more precisely. (Again, creationists love to criticise C-14 dating becasue of teh "assumption that the atmospheric C-14 to C12 ratio has remained the same", or because "the atmspheric C-14 concentration is not in equlibrium" ... but these criticisms are irrelevant because we don't assume that either of them are true or false).
Although there are some things that died at times we know from history and we can compare C-4 dating against, the really interesting stuff happened before reliable historical dates became available. So we have to compare C-14 dating to other methods of measuring the date of a sample of initially unknown age. And we do this with as many different and independent methods as we can think up, so as to have good confidence in the results.
The first comparison method is dendrochronology, or tree rings. Trees almost always grow one ring per year (and we have very strong evidence that there are an insignificant number of years in which they grow more than one ring). Let's go back to our piece of wood with a C-14 to C12 ratio of 0.1. That piece of wood happens to come from a bristlecone pine that was cut down in 1935, and had 5,147 rings. (Yes, some bristlecone pines really do have about that many rings, although I just made up that date and those numbers). We just dated material from the central ring, which is as old as the tree. We now know that, in 2004, that piece of wood was (2004 - 1935) + 5,147 = 5,216 years old (with perhaps a small error because the tree might have made two rings in a very few of those years). Now we know the c-14 to C-12 ratio of the sample today, and the actual age of the sample, and we can calculate the atmospheric C-14 to C-12 ratio when the first ring was laid down!! We can repeat this for the other parts of our sample and get a calibration that tells us the atmospheric C-14 to C-12 for the last 5,000 years!
But we want to go farther back. Now we start collecting pieces of bristlecone pine that died long ago, and are lying around in the desert. We find one that has exactly the same pattern in it outer 100 rings as our first sample has in its inner 100 rings! (Tree rings are wide or narrow depending on the weather in that year, and form a pattern over many years). This bristlecone pine died 100 years after our first bristlecone pine started growing! We can count its rings and test it for C-14 and extend our calibration farther back! And with other kinds of trees, and lots of overlapping patterns, we can extend that calibration back to about 11,000 - 12,000 years before the present.
Now we know the atmospheric C-14 to C12 ratio for about 11,000 years back, and we can measure the true age of any terrestrial sample that died in that period.
But that's not far enough, and we still want to verify our results from the trees; so we do uranium-thorium dating of corals from many different sites, and we count annual layers (called "varves") that are laid down in lots of lakes, and we look at pollen in ice cores, and we look at planctonic foraminifera in sediments, and we C-14 date these things, and they all agree to within a percent or two ... and we get a rock-solid calibration of the atmospheric C-14 to C12 ratio for the last 24,000 years, and we can date any suitable sample that died in that period.
Then we find Lake Suigetsu in Japan with 45,000 varve layers, and we extend our calibration back to 45,000 years ago .. but we're not totally sure of it, because we don’t have corroborating data, so we don't trust our dates in the 24,000 to 45,000 year range as much as we do the dates in the 0 to 24,000 year range. However, we are sure that when we date a sample at 40,000 years it's pretty close to 40,000 years old.
Summarizing, C-14 dating is calibrated by multiple independent corroborating lines of evidence and, as long as suitable samples are chosen (which is usually easy), provides a reliable method of dating organic samples that are from 0 to 45,000 years old.
Some good sites with more detail:
Carbon Dating is short and not technical at all.
Radiocarbon Dating is a very good and not too technical site by Dr. Gerald Aardsma, a former YEC formerly a member of ICR, still a creationist but too dedicated to truth to remain with the ICR.
A 45.000 YEAR VARVE CHRONOLOGY FROM JAPAN on the Lake Suigetsu varves.
You can see calibration curves for the last 4,000 years at Typical Calibrated Ranges. A slightly more difficult to read curve for the last 10,00 years is at CALIBRATION. CALPAL 2004 January is the calibration curve for the last 45,000 years, too far reduced to see anything useful but you can get the general idea. You can use an online calculator based on that curve at CalPal online.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Justin Clark, posted 05-06-2004 5:13 PM Justin Clark has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 05-06-2004 8:17 PM JonF has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 74 (106059)
05-06-2004 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JonF
05-06-2004 7:41 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
Really excellent post, JonF.
Only addtion I would make that seems to get left out a lot is the size of the change needed for calibration. I understand that it is in the 5 to 10% range. So the uncalibarated dates aren't all that far off either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by JonF, posted 05-06-2004 7:41 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 74 (106064)
05-06-2004 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Justin Clark
05-06-2004 5:13 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
Hi, Odessan! I get over there now and again....
Welcome to EvC. I'd answer your question, but JonF already did more completely than I could even attempt.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 74 (106066)
05-06-2004 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coragyps
05-06-2004 8:26 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
The only thing that I would like to add is that Carbon dating is not used alone.
One of the key features of dating is that several methods are used, carbon dating, positional, relationship and correlation to other similar sites or objects, and all must be in agreement.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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JonF
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 8 of 74 (106069)
05-06-2004 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by NosyNed
05-06-2004 8:17 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
the uncalibarated dates aren't all that far off either.
Right. If the uncalibrated dates were exactly right the calibration "curve" would be a straight line at a 45 degree angle. The 45,000 year CalPal curve is close to that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by NosyNed, posted 05-06-2004 8:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 757 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 9 of 74 (106072)
05-06-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by JonF
05-06-2004 8:39 PM


Re: Carbon-14 Dating Explained
There's another recent study (unfortunately so new that it isn't free on the Science website) that correlates varves in the Cariaco Basin off Venezuela with 14C dates, and compares five other correlations. They all line up very closely back to 30,000 years ago, and then differ by 5% or so back to 44,000 years or so.
Reference is Hughen, et al., Science, vol 303, pp 202-207 (2004).

This message is a reply to:
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Justin Clark
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 74 (106410)
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


More Questions
I thank you all so very much for taking the time to answer such a simple question. However, after reading JonF's explanation many other questions seemed to surface. (I would like to make it clear that I am not implying my ideas are right because I am more interested in knowing why i am wrong.) From your explanation, I came to the conclusion that C-14 dating is done on the premise of a constant. No outside factors are able to disturb or alter the rate of decrease. You said that nitrogen interacts with the cosmic rays to form C-14, which in turn is filtered in to the plants then to animals and so on. Can the level of nitrogen in the atmosphere change, for example when the Government destroyed that island with the nitrogen bomb. Is the Earth subjected to constant amounts of cosmic rays? Or can objects such as meteors, comtes, space shuttles change thios as well. We know that pollution effects the ozone layer, which from my understanding is the filter of the Earth, so could this also effect the rate at which it decreases? In my opinion it seems as if carbon dating is made upon one maybe two unsubstantiated theories. The first is that the rate of change is constant and without variation. The second is that we live in a controlled environment where one event does not always effect another. I do not question the methods at which people exponentially smarter than I used to come to a conclusion. I wonder if the ground work on which they base their methods is as concrete as many are lead to believe. Once again I appreciate your time and i want to make a point to mention that i am not looking for any arguments just friendly disscussion. Thank you so very much and I hope to hear from you soon.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 13 by JonF, posted 05-07-2004 7:14 PM Justin Clark has not replied
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 05-08-2004 1:20 AM Justin Clark has not replied
 Message 15 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-08-2004 7:25 AM Justin Clark has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 74 (106415)
05-07-2004 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
First, I don't think we or anyone else has a Nitrogen Bomb.
But what is actually looking at is the radioactive decay, where one isotope changes to another. That decay is very much at a fixed rate. The half life and decay rates are very precisely known.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 74 (106418)
05-07-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
No outside factors are able to disturb or alter the rate of decrease. You said that nitrogen interacts with the cosmic rays to form C-14, which in turn is filtered in to the plants then to animals and so on. Can the level of nitrogen in the atmosphere change, for example when the Government destroyed that island with the nitrogen bomb
It was a "hydrogen" bomb but that's a nit. The level of carbon 14 relative to carbon 12 is what is important. The nuclear tests did, in fact, affect the levels of a number of radioactive isotopes C-14 among them. Using C-14 to date recent dates wouldn't make sense anyway since measurement errors might be as large as the date being measured.
Is the Earth subjected to constant amounts of cosmic rays? Or can objects such as meteors, comtes, space shuttles change thios as well. We know that pollution effects the ozone layer, which from my understanding is the filter of the Earth, so could this also effect the rate at which it decreases?
As noted before the rate of C-14 productin is not constant as you say. However, the degree of error that this produces has been shown to be small( <10%) by the various calibrations done. The calibarations also allow us to correct for this.
Meteors, comets etc are a very small affect (I'm guessing) relative to the cosmic ray flux that supplies the C-14.
{qsIn my opinion it seems as if carbon dating is made upon one maybe two unsubstantiated theories. The first is that the rate of change is constant and without variation[/qs]
This is not an unsubstantiated theory. It is the result of both measurements made, the checking of the results with known historic dates and the understanding of the underlying physics. The rates are not subject to change by any reasonable mechanisms.
Literalist sites have suggested that rates are subject to change by pointing to a couple of different actual scientific publications and measurements. They neglect (deliberatly I think) to point out that you might not think that turning the earth to a super heated plasma or transporting it to the center of a supernova are "reasonable" mechanisms for affecting the rate of radioactive decay.
The second is that we live in a controlled environment where one event does not always effect another. I do not question the methods at which people exponentially smarter than I used to come to a conclusion. I wonder if the ground work on which they base their methods is as concrete as many are lead to believe. Once again I appreciate your time and i want to make a point to mention that i am not looking for any arguments just friendly disscussion. Thank you so very much and I hope to hear from you soon.
Of course, we don't live in such a controlled enviroment. The introduction of addtional C-14 by nuclear tests is an example of that.
The issues which you raise have not been ignored. However, let's pretend that they have. Let's pretend that the physicists and archeologists involved with this have not been careful. You're suggesting that these things can throw the dates off terribly.
Why then do the methods work when used on things which can have dates assigned by other means? Why do the dates of tree rings correspond to the value you get by counting (to within a few percent)? Why do the layers in lakes that you can count correspond to the C-14 dates (to within a few percent)?
If there were unsuspected things influencing the dating method, why does it work in a very, very large number of cases and only get out of whack in cases where it is used carelessly or there are other difficulties?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Justin Clark, posted 05-07-2004 6:16 PM Justin Clark has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 13 of 74 (106436)
05-07-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
All the things that you mention change the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere and, if we did not take them into account, would lead to errors. It turns out they wouldn't be large errors, but we're always trying to make errors smaller.
About half, or maybe more, of my first post in this thread explained exactly how we compensate for those possible problems, and several that you haven't thought of, by calibrating C-14 dating against other independent methods. Lots of other independent methods.
The result of that calibration is twofold:
1. High accuracy.
2. Demonstration that the effect of all these possible problems is somewhat small.
I suggest that you re-read my first post, and read some of the links I gave. The answers to your "new" questions are there.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 74 (106518)
05-08-2004 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
I think the constant you are talking about is the half-life of C-14, and yes that is a constant (some creationists have argued for increased radioactivity with increasing age but there are just too many inconsistencies for that to hold - not least of which are all those correlation curves).
There is another factor that can affect samples, and that is contamination - two kinds:
(1) contact with recent organics that mix modern C-14 with the sample - handled by following proper proceedures in sample collection, isolationi and testing, and
(2) nearness to radioactivity; there are samples of coal and oil that test "too young" due to elevated C-14 that is generated by radioactive recoversion of nitrogen to C-14 (another creationist favorite) - handled by measuring radioactivity in other samples.
Other sources of information are:
http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/carbon.html (good C-14 info) and
Radiometric Dating (good overall radiometric dating info)
enjoy.
ps - the oldest living bristlecone pine is over 4600 years old, while an older one (the "Methusula" tree) was cut down in 1957 and then dated to 4789 years old.
also see: http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth on the issue of correlations between dating methods based on annual counting systems.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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BobAliceEve
Member (Idle past 5417 days)
Posts: 107
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Joined: 02-03-2004


Message 15 of 74 (106549)
05-08-2004 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Justin Clark
05-07-2004 6:16 PM


Re: More Questions
Hi Justin,
As you can see from the posts, these are great people to work with to get questions answered.
There is an additional, huge assumption which I think is worse than any listed so far. This is that the atmosphere of the earth is roughly as old as the earth.
In 1975 I created a formula to see what C-14 said the age of the atmosphere is. My formula was checked by a statistician at the life insurance company we were employed by. When I put the numbers (which I found in some science book) into his scientific calculator, both of our jaws dropped when the number 13,600 came out (this is, of course, amazingly close to 6,000 years of creation and 6,000 years of history).
There is, as far as I can see, no way to prove that the atmosphere is not 13,600 years old and trying to correlate it to the age of the earth is, therefor, suspect.
I continued to put some effort into the problem but gained little additional information. For example, sometime before 1983 I used a computer and the same formula to compute the error in time estimation which would occur for each year if saturation over 50,000 years was assumed compared to if the 13,600 year age were to be correct. Of course, the computer reported that the error was infinite after 13,600 years ago (division by zero) so not much was learned.
I am not a scientist but I fully understand the arithmetic required to create (organize) the fomula and I did have it checked and I believe what it told me! I think it is worth taking into account,
Very best wishes,
Bob, Alice, and Eve
(Edited to correct a gross spelling error)
This message has been edited by BobAliceEve, 05-08-2004 06:28 AM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 74 (106551)
05-08-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by BobAliceEve
05-08-2004 7:25 AM


I think it is worth taking into account,
It would be a little easier to "take it into account" if you were to actually provide the reasoning, equations, and caluclations you used to arrive at that figure, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
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