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Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Many people in this debate are familiar with the "problem" of Polonium halos, however this thread is not about Polonium halos, and any further mention is off topic (see PRATT CF201: Polonium Halos). Anyone wanting to talk about Polonium halos is free to start their own thread, and not clutter this one up, thanks.
Where I am starting is from Dr Wiens:Radiometric Dating quote:(bold added for empHASis, part deleted not about uranium halos) The stock YEcreationist response is that the decay rates changed, and thus all you are seeing is the result of fast decay rather than long time. Aside from this being another PRATT (see CF210: Constancy of Radioactive Decay) which is also off topic and not part of this thread, it struck me that Uranium halos are evidence that this did not occur. The basic radiohalo principle is simple: radioactivity produces alpha decay, and the alpha particle have a certain energy (usually measured in million electron volts, MeV) based on the familiar e=mc² formula and the conservation of energy/mass (see ref):
M1 = M2 + mp + e/c²
Thus when you have isotopes decaying into other isotopes by alpha decay, the energy of the alpha particle is unique to that decay stage because of the unique before and after mass of the decaying isotope and the constant mass of the alpha particle. This unique energy then determines how far (on average) an alpha particle will travel before it gets stopped and absorbed into the surrounding material (and causes the ring pattern to be visible) and the result is a halo or a number of halos around decaying inclusions that look like rings, but are actually spherical, and something like this:
The halos require more than one particle to form as each one only makes a point on the ring. Thus uranium, with it's long half-life, takes "several hundred million years to form." Now the fun part: this is based on our knowledge of physics and the physical constants that tell us how things behave in the universe, so what happens if you have fast decay instead of old time? Not being a physicist, I am not familiar with the equations that link decay rate to decay energy, so I am going on memory, but I found this interesting tid-bit in Alpha Decay, Alpha detectors and identification:
quote:(bold for empHASis) Very simply put, if you change the decay rate, you change the decay energy, and the diameter of the halo changes. There should be no characteristic uranium halos with the unique energy of uranium alpha decay from fast decay. The existence of (common) uranium halos then is evidence that shows the physical constants have not changed while they were formed, and their formation in turn is evidence that the earth is old, at least several hundred million years old. Enjoy. ps - I would appreciate any of the physics mavens supplying confirmation of my rambling, and possibly provide the equation/s relating decay rate to decay energy. Thanks. ppss - anyone that can tell what goes on in the ring formation would also help. DATES AND DATING forum please (I am thinking this is another correlation item) Edited by RAZD, : was "an alpha particle will travel before it decays" changed decays into "stopped and absorbed" Edited by RAZD, : added bold and subtitle Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by Admin, : Fix title.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4755 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I found this article abstract The nature of radiohaloes in biotite: Experimental studies and modeling:
quote:(bold for empHASis) SO the ring would be caused by the alpha particle causing a "point defect" in the surrounding material, interrupting the normal light pattern Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : corrected symbolsby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 989 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
anyone that can tell what goes on in the ring formation would also help. Surely it's chemical/mechanical damage. Alphas bouncing off nuclei until they run out of steam, and then stealing electrons from atoms and making new ions out at the out-of-steam radius are both going to do some damage to crystal structure in the host mineral. Enough alpha particles from a bit of uranium, and one can see the damage. I'm betting the YEC response will sound like, "Yeah, now alpha energy and half-life correlate inversely, but back during Teh Fludde......" "The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I also found this simple article on the forces in a nucleus and how that affects decay:
The Strong Nuclear Force, Alpha Decay and Fission quote: This is just background information, not for discussion yet. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : fixedby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks Coragyps,
I'm betting the YEC response will sound like, "Yeah, now alpha energy and half-life correlate inversely, but back during Teh Fludde......" That's why it would be nice to have the formulas.
Surely it's chemical/mechanical damage. And it looks to be more mechanical than chemical (ionic). Thanks Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From Alpha Barrier Penetration
quote: Why an alpha particle and not a proton?
No webpage found at provided URL: Alpha Binding Energy quote: I envisage it as a pyramid with each particle in contact with the other, and therefore bound by the strong force. Edited by RAZD, : size of image Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This, I believe is the crux of the issue:
Alpha Tunneling Model quote: Change the decay rate, and you change the energy of the alpha particle. Not a strict inverse relationship (exponential?) Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Digging deeper along the coulomb wall, I found another article that goes into equations:
PHYS 490/891 - Winter 2007, 2.8 Alpha-Decay quote: Okay, I'm having trouble getting from Qα to λ Translation needed. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : 10^19 not 1019 Edited by RAZD, : darn smilies Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : formula restored Edited by Zen Deist, : fixed formula again. tried to fix link but it is subject to annual revision Edited by Zen Deist, : disable smilieby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 989 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Change the decay rate, and you change the energy of the alpha particle. Which is how bismuth 209 can have a 3 MeV alpha decay - its half life is 10^19 years. Where are the YEC's, Coragyps wonders...... "The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
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johnfolton  Suspended Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: |
The stock YEcreationist response is that the decay rates changed, and thus all you are seeing is the result of fast decay rather than long time. Makes sense if you take genesis literally you could have 3,000 to 4,000 years of accelerated decay. The sun became a light on day 1 according to some creationists 13,000 years ago. It was not a light unto the earth according to genesis for those first 3 creationists days (3,000 years) thus the sun just a star was likely like a torch in the sky could of been producing excessive amounts of gamma radiation, a much greater magnetic field, causing an acceleration of decay as part of the creation of the earth and the atmosphere until day 4 when the sun was made a light unto the earth. It was not until day 4 that the sun according to some creationists the sun was made a light unto the earth the present slower decay rates, and the ever weakening magnetic fields of the earth. P.S. Uniformitists assume the sun has been a star more than 13,000 years but if the young earth creationists are right and the sun became a star approximately 13,000 years ago on creation day 1 and was not a light unto the earth until day 4 you have 3,000 to 4,000 years of accelerated decay possible from their point of view happening on the earth explaining the appearance of age but not the age of the earth. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Remedial treatment of nucleur wastes are looking to gamma radiation, proton acceleration, higher magnetic fields, photons " not neutrons or alpha radiation" to accelerate uranium decay rates, to treat nuke wastes, etc... nukwastpats In a few major bursts, the sun produces gamma rays with energies up to one million electron volts. The interaction of high-energy electrons, protons, and nuclei of the sun, emit the rays. SMGAELS | Play to Gain Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given. Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given. Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4444 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
from the first website in message 11 Generally speaking, the target nucleus of the radioisotope(s) to be treated is irradiated by gamma photons of an energy greater than the binding energy of the neutron in the target nucleus. This causes the irradiated nucleus to absorb the gamma rays, thereby placing the nucleus in an excited state. Upon relaxation, the nucleus ejects a neutron through the (gamma, n) reaction, thereby transmuting the element to an isotope of lower atomic mass and shorter half-life. Using U238 as the source, this process would result in U237, half life of 6.75 days, a beta emitter which becomes Np237 an alpha emitter with a half life of 2.14E6 years (2,140,000) This doesn't accelerate the decay any where near what would be needed to reduce the age of the sun from 5 billion years to 13000 years. As for the same procedure on the infant sun, the only isotopes at this time would have been H1, H2, H3, He3 & He4. Doing the same procedure would produce : from H1 a neutron which emits a beta to rebecomes H1H2 becomes H1 stable, H3 becomes H2 stable, He3 becomes He2 Beta plus emiier becomes H2 stable, He4 becomes He3 stable. The only radioactive isitope created is He3 from the almost nonexistant He3 Thus no accelleration of radioactive decay. Figures from Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, edition 87, 2006 Edited by bluescat48, : spelling There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well, johnfulton et al et al et al,
Makes sense if you take genesis literally you could have 3,000 to 4,000 years of accelerated decay. This thread is not about how you twist reality into your private mythology. It is about Uranium halos, and why Uranium halos are (a) evidence that there has been no change to the rate of decay for hundreds of millions of years and (b) that the earth is at least several hundred million years old. If the decay rates had changed we would not have Uranium halos, because the energy of the alpha particles would change WITH the change in decay rate, and the resulting rings would NOT be at the correct diameter, if they weren't smeared to much to see. You don't discuss this at all, so your entire post is irrelevant, typical of your failure to deal with reality. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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johnfolton  Suspended Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: |
It is about Uranium halos, and why Uranium halos are (a) evidence that there has been no change to the rate of decay for hundreds of millions of years and (b) that the earth is at least several hundred million years old. That I agree this is the uniformitists belief but some creationists believe accelerated decay answers the appearance of age is not evidence of an old earth.
If the decay rates had changed we would not have Uranium halos, because the energy of the alpha particles would change WITH the change in decay rate, and the resulting rings would NOT be at the correct diameter, if they weren't smeared to much to see. Where is your evidence that accelerated decay would change the energy of the alpha particle affecting ring diameter, etc...?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1660 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks johnfolton et al et al et al,
I will only address the portions related to the topic.
Where is your evidence that accelerated decay would change the energy of the alpha particle affecting ring diameter, etc...? Everywhere. But you can start here: Message 8 The decay rate is based on the probability of decay for an atom, change the probability (increase decay) and you change the decay rate of an isotope. Change the decay rate, and you change the time a alpha particle takes to get through the Coulomb barrier (it follows the decay curve). This changes the energy absorbed in the process, which changes the energy left over. The energy left over is what sends the alpha particle out to make the ring. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : ] Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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