Israel vs. Palestine

This is an attempt to move the current discussion from the "Creation and evolution in schools" forum to its own forum for debate and discussion.Lets hear your thoughts, but be forwarned this discussion is very heated and the advocates on both sides are passionate about their views.My asertion is that Israel has the right to exist. It's obviously not the most popular opinion, but I have yet to see any evidence that would convince me otherwise.[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 02-02-2003]

WHAT IS PALESTINE?Present day Jordan, Israel, Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and Gaza.
Jordan comprises 76.9% of Palestine
Israel comprises 17.8% of Palestine
Judea & Samaria and Gaza comprise 5.3% of PalestineHISTORY
1920 - The League of Nations recognizes the right of the Jews to reconstitute their National Home in Palestine and confers on Great Britain the mandate to bring this into effect. The area covered present day Israel, Jordan, Judea & Samaria and Gaza.
1922 - The League of Nations postpones the provisions of the mandate in Eastern Palestine effectively denying the Jews access to 3/4 of Palestine for the purpose of settling Jews. Arabs only are permitted to inhabit this area.
1946 - An Arab State is established in Eastern Palestine covering 3/4 of the territory of Palestine. The State is called Transjordan.
1947 - Great Britain withdraws from its role as Mandatory authority.
1948 - After a war between the Jews and six Arab States a Jewish State called Israel is established in part of the remaining 1/4 of Palestine. Transjordan seizes control of Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem and purports to annex these areas to Transjordan. Only Great Britain and Pakistan recognise the annexation. Egypt occupies and administers Gaza.
1950 - Transjordan changes its name to Jordan and begins to call Judea and Samaria the West Bank.
1964 - The Palestine Liberation Organization (P.L.O.) is formed.
1967 - Israel gains control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza in the Six Day War and renames the West Bank Judea and Samaria.
1970 - The P.L.O. try to take over Jordan and are routed by the Jordanian army.
1974 - The Arab League declare the P.L.O. the sole spokesman for the Palestinian Arabs.
1988 - Arafat declares Palestinian independence. Jordan renounces all territorial claims to Judea and Samaria.
1990 - Following the Gulf War, 100,000 Palestinian Arab refugees are expelled from Kuwait and are resettled in Jordan.
1993 - Israel and the P.L.O secretly meet in Oslo and agree to negotiate on the future of Judea and Samaria and the Gaza strip.
1994 - Israel signs a peace treaty with Jordan.
1995/6 - Israel grants autonomy to the Palestinian Authority of the major part of Gaza and various Arab populated areas in Judea and Samaria.

WHAT ARE THE STEPS TO PEACE?Recognition that Jordan and Israel are the successor States in Palestine and that both Jews and Arabs each have their own Sovereign State in Palestine already.Acknowledgment that no additional state be established in Gaza and in the area between Israel and Jordan.Commencement of negotiations between Israel and Jordan to determine the sovereignty of Jordan, Samaria and Gaza and for each country to annex the respective areas agreed upon between them.

"My asertion is that Israel has the right to exist."My assertion is that everyone has the right to exist, but why does Israel have to exist in this particular location?Why force people off thier land for no reason?Best WishesBrian------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Strange how so much of religion is based around material land ownership. So much that 1000s upon 1000s have to die.Hey, but what do I know, I'm a crazy atheist.

HI David,Yes, much of this is based on the justification on military campaigns ordered by YWHW in the Hebrew Bible.I could be wrong here, but I have had several e-mails claiming that Israel should have the land because it was promised to them in the Bible! This is certainly mythological and has no supporting evidence outside of the Bible.Another interesting note is that it was noted by Albert Glock that, based on letters to the Times, more christians were interested in establishing an Israelite State than Jews.Of course they were trying to hurry along Jesus' second coming.If it wasnt so serious it would be funny.All this based on a fairy tale book.Best wishes from another crazy athhiest------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

On the same side, sympathizing with my Palestinian brothers, Christian and Muslim, I also think the whole issue of Israel having to exist there as commanded in the Bible is fallacious.I've heard that back when the Zionists start to look for a place to build a country, some proposed Argentina and Uganda. Anyone can clear this up for me?

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I've heard that back when the Zionists start to look for a place to build a country, some proposed Argentina and Uganda. Anyone can clear this up for me?

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You are correct. Some land was purchased in the US in the 1800s for the same purpose. Page not found - Suite 101------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Since it was stated once before in another forum allow me to borrow from Zipzip.

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Jews had been emigrating to Palestine since the mid 19th century and purchase the rights to their land. Palestinians did not exist as a people prior to emigration of Jews -- the land was completely desolate and the Palestinans came largely in response to a need for labor, as the Jews brought in irrigation and made the land arable and self-sustaining. The Palestinians themselves were refugeed willingly by the surrounding Arab states in the '60s.

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I think this partially answer's Brian's question. I think there is some legitimate history for the specific location where the Jewish people are today. I don't think that Argentina would allow such a foothold for people with no ties to the country...however i could be wrong...At this point in time, I think it's too late anyway. But it you see my first post, you can see the land demographics as they currently stand. There really shouldn't even BE a conflict. It's just greedy Arabs coveting a land that Israel developed. They obvously didn't want it when it was a wasteland which is why they sold it off in massive chunks to begin with.[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 02-04-2003][This message has been edited by Arachnid, 02-04-2003]

righty o' chaps.now i went to isreal for a good 6 months....and apart from getting down with plenty of fine jewish hotties, i did also find the time to get the opinions from both sides of the debate.from what i could tell the isreali's just want to be left alone and think the arabs want to push them into the sea.and the arabs seem to think that the genoside of their poeple's is at the top of the jewish/isreali "to-do" list.but really what i found the REAL issue to be was nothing more than plain 'ol xenophobia, mixed in with its usual partners in crime of fear, and ignorance.and while both sides commit atrosities against the other on an almost daily basis...i would have to side with the isreali's on this one.if the palistinians want to live in a muslim state they have plenty too choose from, but if your a jew (or gentile) and want to live in a jewish state...you have one choice. (stamford hill not included cos its not a state)i recon, both sides just need to chill the fuck out, and understand that violence only leads to more violence....when one side stops the violence the other will be forced to stop aswell...i told the poeple of isreal and palistine of this.. and while it did help me score with quite a few of the ladies......i dont think most of them understood why.The Bread Sultan

I think the best way to respond is with a question.If the UN removed the residents of London by force and gave it to the Jews ( or the Welsh, or the Irish, or Australians ) would you 'chill the fuck out'?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

I must say that though the people were removed by force, it was due to there own greediness that they had to be removed. The Pallys could of moved over nicely considering they didn't even want it to begin with...the Brits want London and always have...plus the Jews have a right to what they worked hard to make a better. I would say more but I have to go!An Open Minded Individual...

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I must say that though the people were removed by force, it was due to there own greediness that they had to be removed.

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You can't support that statement.

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The Pallys could of moved over nicely considering they didn't even want it to begin with...

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Do you really believe that there would be so much violence surrounding this issue if the palestinians didn't want the land? hmmm... if the palestinians did not want to continue living where they were already living? That is the point. There were people already living in the region and they were forcefully evicted.Israel happens to control Islam's third holiest site as well-- Haram al-Sharif.

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the Brits want London and always have...

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So your answer is that if something similar happened in YOUR country, you'd be pissed.

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plus the Jews have a right to what they worked hard to make a better.

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Kinda like when you steal a car. If you put a lot of money into it-- install a stereo, give it a custom paint job, etc-- you have a right to keep it?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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So your answer is that if something similar happened in YOUR country, you'd be pissed.

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Yeah, probably. Although when it comes down to it, I don't know how much right my grandson would have to be pissed. At a certain point you have to say that "giving it back" would amount to relocating another group of people, about three generations worth in fact, and starting the whole mess again. Best option (at least as I see it) is to make the best of a bad situation, and work on improving the Palestinians' quality of life where they are.------------------
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Dan Carroll

Although I am a Muslim and I hold a misguided prejudice against Jews, especially the more extreme Zionists, I would love to see peace in The Holy Land. It's just a piece of land, and the two peoples fighting over it deserved a piece of it.Of course there are fundamnetalists in US who does not want to see their self-fulfilling prophecies stop being fulfilled... they need a conflict in Israel to end the world, to prevent them being global laughingstock.Bread Sultan made an interesting observation there; I wish I can visit that place too...