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Author Topic:   The Reagan Legacy
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4843 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 1 of 86 (114078)
06-10-2004 1:52 AM


I've read a decent amount of literature about the Reagan Administration, and to be honest I don't know what to think about it. I get extreme anti-Reagan views and messianic Reagan views. During the early eighties I was crapping my pants a lot, so I didn't have time to follow politics too closely. I would like those who were politically conscious during the Reagan years to give their perspectives on the Reagan Administration's tenure, and if you would like, Reagan himself.
From what I've read, the main highlights of the Reagan years were:
1.Beirut Fiasco (His Fault?)
2.Iran-Contra Scandel (His Fault?)
3.Supply-Side Economics (Good or Bad for economy? Was it in anyway involved in the 90's good economy as some conservatives claim?)
4.Star Wars Program (A Failure?)
5.Cold War (How much was he involved in the Soviet's demise?)
I've also read that Reagan didn't know the specifics of a lot of his policies, would make up statistics during press conferences, have trouble answering questions during press conferences, and adamantly believed in astrology, which he based his schedule around. He wasn't too enivironmentally friendly either, from what I read.
Based on this, I don't think I would of been Pro-Reagan, but I'm also a conservatively moderate liberal.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Loudmouth, posted 06-10-2004 2:20 PM JustinC has replied
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 Message 12 by nator, posted 06-11-2004 10:13 AM JustinC has not replied
 Message 24 by tsig, posted 06-12-2004 12:15 AM JustinC has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 86 (114169)
06-10-2004 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
06-10-2004 1:52 AM


Not that I am pro-Reagan, but he also helped the country in a few areas. Namely:
1. Stopped run away inflation.
2. Ended the energy crisis by deregulating the oil industry.
3. Increased the number of jobs in America.
4. Supply side or not, he did vastly improve the way of life for most middle class Americans. Of course, we spent the next 10 years trying to pay off the debt.
I was born in '74, so I wasn't soiling my diapers, but I was pretty young when he took office. Although, I was 14 when he left office. What I remember about the Gipper was that you felt a trust for the man. Many claim that he was the best figurehead president that we have ever had, an I might agree with them. As a spokesman for his administration he was perfect, but as a leader who was guiding both domestic and foreign policy he was probably all but absent. People loved the Gip because he related to them and they saw an increase in their weekly paychecks.
As to ending the Cold War, Reagan does deserve some credit. He, or his advisors, saw the monetary advantage that we had over the Soviets. The Cold War was as much about the arms race as it was about ideology. By ramping up our defense spending we forced the Soviets to try and keep up. When their economy collapsed so did the government. Just as an aside, I am also a big Gorbachev fan. I think he saw the writing on the wall and laid the ground work for an easy transition between communism and capitalism/democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JustinC, posted 06-10-2004 1:52 AM JustinC has replied

Replies to this message:
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Intelligitimate
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 86 (114184)
06-10-2004 3:19 PM


What right-wingers say about anything is bound to be nothing but lies. Reagan deserved to be executed, not honored.

Replies to this message:
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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 4 of 86 (114188)
06-10-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Intelligitimate
06-10-2004 3:19 PM


Don't hold back, man.
As we say around these parts (AAAAHHH! They've got me!!!), why don't you tell us how you really feel?
I was only about 10 when Reagan left office... of course I liked him, because my mommy and daddy liked him. I don't know his record well enough to say whether I'd side with him today. I'm totally disillusioned with Bush II, but not necessarily his party and other members thereof.
I somehow have the impression that Reagan was a good consensus-builder respected by even his political enemies. Anybody more "mature" have an opinion on that?

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 86 (114222)
06-10-2004 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by zephyr
06-10-2004 3:35 PM


Re: Don't hold back, man.
quote:
I somehow have the impression that Reagan was a good consensus-builder respected by even his political enemies. Anybody more "mature" have an opinion on that?
I think that is quite true. He even stunned people in his own party by proclaiming he modelled himself after FDR (a democrat btw). More than anything, he stuck to his guns unless it took away American jobs.
Given his age-related palsy, the thought of him having his finger on the button controlling the nukes made me a little nervous. Hopefully he mistook a jellybean for the Button.
This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 06-10-2004 04:50 PM

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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4843 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 6 of 86 (114228)
06-10-2004 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Loudmouth
06-10-2004 2:20 PM


quote:
As to ending the Cold War, Reagan does deserve some credit. He, or his advisors, saw the monetary advantage that we had over the Soviets. The Cold War was as much about the arms race as it was about ideology. By ramping up our defense spending we forced the Soviets to try and keep up. When their economy collapsed so did the government. Just as an aside, I am also a big Gorbachev fan. I think he saw the writing on the wall and laid the ground work for an easy transition between communism and capitalism/democracy.
This is how the argument goes, but I don't think it was ever backed up by any evidence. The Soviet's military budget stayed more or less the same throughout the 80's, and Gorbachev even said that the Soviet's weren't going to keep up with the the US's rampant military spending because it was wasteful. They may of allocated some money towards tweaking their missiles to bypass SDI, which didn't work anyway, but they didn't increase their spending. I think the Soviets knew that even though they were lagging behind the Americans military-wise, they had more than enough missils to destroy America, if they were ever forced to use them.
I think the real reason the Soviet Union collapsed was because of their command economy and ecomomic turmoil is caused amongst its citizens, along with glasnost and perestroika. The people wanted change. This is not to say that their huge military spending wasn't involved in the economic demise, but this was going on for around 40 years by the time Reagan took office and the spending didn't increase substantially during the Reagan years.
There's a good article I read on this a while back and I will dig it up and post it so you can get the info from the primaray source.

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 86 (114232)
06-10-2004 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by JustinC
06-10-2004 6:18 PM


quote:
I think the real reason the Soviet Union collapsed was because of their command economy and ecomomic turmoil is caused amongst its citizens, along with glasnost and perestroika.
You may very well be right. Some theorized that the soviet citizens were jealous of the American lifestyle. They thought that if the communist system was better, then they should be happier. They weren't.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 86 (114235)
06-10-2004 6:35 PM


TV did not stop at Iron Curtains.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 86 (114372)
06-11-2004 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Loudmouth
06-10-2004 2:20 PM


No offense, but at your age you never had to face the music of living under Reagan's time in office. I'm not going to say the guy was the worst, as living under both Bushes has given me perspective that there could be worse, but he was only helpful for a very small percentage of Americans.
As far as your list goes:
1. "Stopped run away inflation..."
This he may have done, but it is hard to say at this point whether it was his policies or not. And the effects were not across the board. If you tried to get a college education during this time you were painfully aware of how high inflation was and continued to grow.
2. "Ended the energy crisis by deregulating the oil industry..."
I would love to see supporting evidence for this statement. It is pretty well documented that the energy crisis we were suffering up until he took office was MANUFACTURED. There was no crisis beyond greedy corporate execs having power over vital resources, with little oversight. Deregulation of energy rarely helps anything as Enron and Co proved a number of years back in California.
3. "Increased the number of jobs in America."
By which I take it you missed out on the depression he caused in the later years of his administration, leading into the first Bush's term. His policies may have increased the number of unskilled garbage jobs, but there was a DECREASE in the accountability of employers for employees (meaning your job was never sure for long), and a decrease in real jobs for which you needed a diploma and earned enough money to pay for your education.
4. "Supply side or not, he did vastly improve the way of life for most middle class Americans."
This is if you define middle class as those who were upper middle class and not the rest who down shifted into lower class. How convenient such lines are. I was part of the group that went down. They simply redrew the line and then claimed life got better for most middle class people. Although I will admit for his first term things improved, his second negated the first.
(5) "Cold War..."
I do agree with you that he deserves some credit for "ending the cold war", though this ignores the fact that anyone else in office might have helped it's demise just the same or even more. The Soviet Union was crumbling all by itself. What RR did was overcome his public hyperbole to reach agreements with Gorbachev that allowed for its demise without major conflict. For that he stands head and shoulders above the Bushes, and we do owe him some credit.
The fact that Gorbachev himself credits RR with helping end the Cold War, sort of undercuts anyone saying the guy gets NO credit.
(6) What you did not mention was education. I was a student for much of the Reagan years and he was TERRIBLE for education. His track record on this score went back to his days of governing CA where he ENDED public funded education. The damage he caused was still being corrected when Clinton hit office (who went on to do quite a bit of good for education).
Back in those days I was kind of punkish and wore a t-shirt that said "Reagan Hates Me". That's how I felt then, but looking back on those days now (being forced to with all this nostaliga TV going on) I must admit his hate is almost a warm glow of affection compared to the vitriole I felt (and still feel) emanating from both Bush and son.
Yeah, I can see why Republicans are looking back to him with such nostalgia. He was the last Republican that managed to do SOMETHING right in office.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 10 of 86 (114389)
06-11-2004 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
06-11-2004 7:14 AM


forgot about AIDs
Shoot, I forgot about Reagan's contribution to the AIDs crisis, and the ostracizing of gays by using it as a tool of hatred and fear against them. See the other Reagan "tribute" thread for my post regarding that.
In short, part of Reagan's legacy was ensuring that HIV became a worse threat to world health than it had to be. The idea that it was a punishment from god, began with his endorsement of the false idea that AIDs was a gay disease and they deserved the fruits of their lifestyle.
Whoops apocalypse. Which horseman does that make him?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 11 of 86 (114400)
06-11-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
06-10-2004 1:52 AM


The Millennium Pigeon
quote:
4.Star Wars Program (A Failure?)
The Strategic Defense Initiative was supposed to put our fears of nuclear apocalypse behind us, thanks to the efforts of the resposible diplomat who gave us the We begin bombing in five minutes! speech. Even sci-fi writer Ben Bova authored a cheerleading book supporting the aims of the SDI project. This tome was even less plausible than Bova's other works, but didn't feature Boris Vallejo's usual loincloth-clad-cuties cover art.
Thirty billion dollars ($30,000,000,000 for you Brits) later, the initiative was abandoned, and most of the scientists involved were straightforward in their admission that the project had always appeared absolutely unfeasible. Perhaps it's the bean-counter in me, but I'm fascinated that such an immense amount of money could be tossed down the shitter with literally nothing to show for it. For those of you disposed to pay tribute to Reagan's committment to fiscal responsibility and trimming of government fat and waste, please answer this simple multiple choice question:
If you spent one million dollars ($1,000,000) per day, how long would it take to spend thirty billion dollars?
a) Nine months
b) Nine years
c) Ninety years
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 86 (114411)
06-11-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
06-10-2004 1:52 AM


Don't forget that he cut a lot of federal funding for education.
The main effect Reagan had on me when he was in office is that my college aid was cut.
The main lasting effect his policies still have on me was that he began the policy of taxing college stipends. My husband is a graduate student and as such receives less than $20,000/year pre tax while living in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.
Of course, stipends are not income, but a little bit of money you are supposed to live on while you complete graduate work. Apparently, however, already-struggling students should be taxed, and the richest of all Americans should have their taxes cut.
Makes sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 86 (114414)
06-11-2004 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
06-11-2004 8:58 AM


Re: forgot about AIDs
quote:
Whoops apocalypse. Which horseman does that make him?
Pestilence.

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 86 (114415)
06-11-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
06-11-2004 8:58 AM


Re: forgot about AIDs
A word on the subject from C. Everett Koop. The "five years" he's referring to in the passage below are from 1981 to 1986.
But for some reason, due to intradepartmental politics that I still cannot truly understand or explain to you, I was cut off from AIDS discussions or statements over the next five years. But I did have a very definite impression about what was going on on Pennsylvania Avenue. Domestic policy in the White House isolated Ronald Reagan from the whole subject of AIDS. And because transmission of AIDS was understood primarily in the homosexual population and in those who abused intravenous drugs, the advisors to the President took the stand, they are only getting what they justly deserve.
Here is the text of the whole 2001 speech that passage comes from, if anyone wants proper context.

"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled songs of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 15 of 86 (114418)
06-11-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by MrHambre
06-11-2004 9:48 AM


Re: The Millennium Pigeon
An interesting, but rarely mentioned, fact about the Star Wars SDI is that Reagan always intended to share the technology freely with the Russians once it was developed.

This message is a reply to:
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