Why God uses faith

Why do you think God would use faith instead of visual guidance?I often think that if God would reveal himself regularly, we wouldnt have but a couple stragglers making it to the cellar.Do you think if somebody performed a miracle right before your eyes, such as raising the dead, would anybody question this persons origins?Why would God make somebody like doubting Thomas a chosen one and leave the rest to do the hard work?Your thoughts please.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.This message has been edited by AdminPD, 03-04-2006 08:05 AM

One way to view God's faith is that it is a perspective on things, God's perspective. As such, it is also the truth. So one reason God requires faith is that he requires truth.But you raise a good question in why does God require that we develop and hold to faith even when we are challenged to doubt? Why not get rid of the need to believe rather than doubt by just constantly removing all doubt with supernatural appearances whenever we doubt?I think part of the answer is that God wants to partner with humanity rather than create automotons. He wants us to make decisions and to work through problems, not exactly on our own, but with assistance from God but of a limited nature in terms of the ways God helps us. God isn't going to to just make it happen without us, and so we need to mature and grow up, and evidently God equates maturing with developing faith.Now, a critical thing to realize, which may seem obvious, is that God wants us to be challenged with doubt and to have to work our way through it, and hopefully arrive at greater faith. The struggle is ordained. The reason is that a greater faith is also a greater awareness and moreover, a greater power, and the power angle is something worth exploring.Jesus says our faith has direct effects on reality. I would argue that QM shows us a hint of this by indicating observer/participancy, and that most people intuitively know this as shown by sayings such as "what goes around, comes around." I think most people think what you do in some fashion comes back to you, or that karma or judgment is real.So if one's inward state and energy and perspective do actually have direct effects on the universe, then having faith becomes very practical in terms of mankind expanding technologically, spiritually, mentally, etc,...In other words, one reason God requires us to develop faith is that we will need faith to open our consciousness to the ideas and realities we will need to expand and develop as a race.

you know, i was totally agreeing with you right up until the that qm bit.to quote the princess bride, "i do not think it means what you think it means."

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Hello, and welcome to EVC!! Why do people go to college to become doctors? Yes, they would. I don't know. I personally have a hard time with that one, and it is why I do not worry about who is going to heaven or not.

You think there are direct effects from our inward state, intention, words and actions on reality?Then why wouldn't we see that in science research after awhile, especially in QM?

becuase using a misunderstanding of qm as an excuse for any crazed idea regarding religion or post-modern pseudophilosophy about our inability to understand the universe is just bad, bad mental masturbation.yes, in science we DO in fact see direct effects of our inward states on reality. it's called "observer bias." and we try to eliminate it because it invalidates tests.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 02-25-2006 09:51 PM

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Of course. The Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil. The blind man who was healed by Jesus understood who Jesus was by the healing itself, and expressed astonishment that others didn't immediately recognize that only God could perform such a healing.Jesus also told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man to illustrate that despite the common belief that a direct witness would be convincing, the fact is that it isn't. Jesus told the rich man that sending one who had died to warn his brothers of their fate in hell wouldn't convince them anyway, that if they hadn't believed Moses they wouldn't believe this witness either.It is illustrated throughout the Bible that people who witnessed miracles tend to forget them or forget their importance after a very short time. The incident of the golden calf while Moses was up on Sinai certainly shows that the people had already forgotten God's demonstrations of power that brought them out of Egypt, and turned to an idol god. The fearfulness of most of those who investigated the Promised Land the first time shows a similar loss of faith in the God of miracles despite that generation's abundant experience of miracles. Thomas is treated as inferior to those who believed without having to see, not made a "chosen one." Why is faith "hard work?" You read it and you believe it. You hear it and you believe it. Those who heard Jesus had risen from the dead were blessed because they knew immediately exactly what Thomas insisted on knowing the hard way.Reasons in general for saving us by faith:1) Faith is trust. Trust gives honor to the trusted one. It glorifies God to trust what He says and does to the point of acting on it, being willing to die for it.2) Faith is spiritual. The Kingdom of Heaven is spiritual. Seeing a miracle is a physical thing, a cerebral thing. Faith is of the substance of God Himself.3) Faith distinguishes the sheep from the goats. God is in the business of saving sheep. Goats can see a miracle same as sheep, but sheep believe and trust, and love God's goodness.If I think of more reasons I'll add them later.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-25-2006 10:12 PM

The term "observer/participancy" stems from the dominant view of QM or was recently, not some misunderstanding. You are just too ignorant of the field to understand it's claims.

yeah, no. try 19th century psychology and electromagnetism.it helps to actually have some education in science before you go off willy nilly about whatever the latest pseudo-scientific fad is. btw, the physics community is now past qm, and string theory. try to keep up before you call someone else ignorant.

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I've no idea, but it's clear that people who have created beliefs, religions, prophecies etc. require faith because they have no evidence. Pat Robertson for example needs the faith of his followers in order to fleece them. It's a confidence game. Faith equals getting the confidence of the believer so they will follow you and the God you represent.It follows from this that demons and devils are the gods that rival and competitive religious leaders follow. I.e. my sock puppet is God, that religon over there, their sock puppet is Satan, or a demon. My product good, rival products not so good, even bad for you. Just doing business.lfen

don't mistake the faithful for the gullible. we're not all suckers.while many people are drawn in by con artists and hucksters preying on their need for meaning, some have no such need. i do not need to believe in a god, or any form of supernatural anything. i got on just fine as an athiest, and could continue to do so. i believe because i choose to; because it feels like the right choice. i believe in god because i think he's real, not because i'm empty inside.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 02-25-2006 10:48 PM

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So what does your believing consist of? Deductions? Confidence in the statements of others, say Paul of Tarsus? Or some kind of experience of your own? some other process?lfen

no, that's not faith. that's logic. generally not, no. i tend to be on the skeptical side (and i've found paul exceptionally wanting) maybe. dunno.

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Randman and Arach,I am clueless as to what QM is other than it is obviously a science thing, but IMO, your posts are drifting away from the intent of the OP. Please do not continue this line of discussion.Since I am clueless about QM, if you feel that there is more to discuss concerning this and that it is pertinent to the topic, please feel free to enlighten me in the moderation thread listed below.

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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