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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 531 (474288)
07-07-2008 1:01 PM


To the average American, Protestant Charismatic Christianity is that which is broadcast daily by the Televangelists such as Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn. The radio preachers are better, but by and large, the message that we see resembles more of a huge infomercial, a warped prosperity gospel, and a form of self congratulatory exclusivity.

Were Jesus to return tomorrow, would He find contemporary public Christianity to be applauded or would He see it as reprehensible?


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Message 2 of 531 (474400)
07-08-2008 8:03 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
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Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 531 (474412)
07-08-2008 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-07-2008 1:01 PM


Specifically to the point
The type of charismatic nonsense of which I am referring:

Crazy

crazier

(I had a third link, but Kenneth Copeland Ministries had all references to it taken off of You Tube due to "a copyright infringement". )

Edited by Phat, : fixed my links

Edited by Phat, : more foolin

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : new info


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3589 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 531 (474415)
07-08-2008 11:40 AM


typical
Aren't these rockets just your typical 'born again' type?

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Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 6107
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5 of 531 (474416)
07-08-2008 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-08-2008 11:09 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Do you think the TBN gang of spiritual thugs are aware that they are pieces of amphibian shit, or do you think that maybe in their mind they're just doing what they were taught?

Or even better, I'll bet these people don't even believe in God or the authority of the Bible. Because surely they would be extremely aware that they are crooks and swindlers, the same kind that Jesus warned about in the Bible. Would they be that bold to risk certain perdition, or are they merely trolls who act this way just so they can swindle your money?


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 6 of 531 (474418)
07-08-2008 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
Nemesis writes:

I'll bet these people don't even believe in God or the authority of the Bible. Because surely they would be extremely aware that they are crooks and swindlers, the same kind that Jesus warned about in the Bible. Would they be that bold to risk certain perdition, or are they merely trolls who act this way just so they can swindle your money?

You know....I'm not entirely sure!

I used to think that they were on the level and perhaps taught to be overly emotional and zealous but that surely they believed.

The fact that they are so good at passing the plate, however, leads me now to believe that they have fallen in with the dark side and, while perhaps initially sincere when they first started out, they now know full well what they are doing.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 531 (474420)
07-08-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
07-08-2008 11:40 AM


Charismaniacs
Brian writes:

Aren't these rockets just your typical 'born again' type?

I'm not so sure that I would label anyone who claims to be "born again" in this same camp. You must remember that the televangelists, while the most visible of American Pentecostals and charismatics, are not examples of how the majority think and act. (the audience notwithstanding)

Many American Christians share in the emotional experience and pageantry.

Few have actually been transformed, however. Even then, a fellow has to surrender daily.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3589 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 531 (474425)
07-08-2008 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
07-08-2008 11:58 AM


Re: Charismaniacs
I think anyone who has gone thru this 'born again' experience really has had their view of the world altered, and I'm not saying that this is a bad thing in every case. However, some of the most repungent and ignorant people I have ever met claim to have been born again.

But these pentecostals should really be put in an institution away from the rest of us.

These people make a mockery out of Christianity, they need gimmicks to reinforce their faith. We have pentes here, but there's not too many of them, but this type of showmanship would never catch on here.

Maybe you can help me out here. I was watching the God channel a few eeks ago and this 'evangelical' preacher was at his stuff but I didnt get his name. He looked like an ex-rocker, bald head, covered in tattoos, and he was in front of a huge crowd. it was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen on tv.

Edited by Brian, : No reason given.


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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6107
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 9 of 531 (474427)
07-08-2008 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
07-08-2008 11:53 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
The fact that they are so good at passing the plate, however, leads me now to believe that they have fallen in with the dark side and, while perhaps initially sincere when they first started out, they now know full well what they are doing.

That's what I think, too. They can't know the Bible that well and be so oblivious to not know when they are clearly in the wrong. I'll bet you they don't believe any of it, which allows them to alleviate their conscience.


“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 10 of 531 (474428)
07-08-2008 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2008 12:36 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
Nemesis writes:

That's what I think, too. They can't know the Bible that well and be so oblivious to not know when they are clearly in the wrong. I'll bet you they don't believe any of it, which allows them to alleviate their conscience.

Is it not sad that so many turn away from the faith?

Even though I have seen many logical arguments against a personal relationship with God and even though I walk entirely by faith any more (I never see any supernatural stuff anymore! )

I think deep down that God is going to surprise a lot of people.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 571 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 531 (474429)
07-08-2008 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
07-08-2008 12:26 PM


Re: Charismaniacs
Todd Bentley. Spearheading a revivial in Florida, supposedly. Same m.o. as the rest of 'em though. "Keep sowing that seed money folks ..."

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iano
Member (Idle past 571 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 531 (474430)
07-08-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
07-08-2008 12:39 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
quote:
think deep down that God is going to surprise a lot of people.

I don't think you have to dig all that deep.

"Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your (JEEEEEEEEEEZUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS) name?"


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3589 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 531 (474432)
07-08-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
07-08-2008 12:40 PM


Re: Charismaniacs
Cheers Ian.

I must admit though, there's more difficult ways to make money.


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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 531 (474436)
07-08-2008 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2008 12:36 PM


Re: Specifically to the point
That's what I think, too. They can't know the Bible that well and be so oblivious to not know when they are clearly in the wrong. I'll bet you they don't believe any of it, which allows them to alleviate their conscience.

Well, NJ, Phat, I may disagree.

Not that I can see into people's souls, or anything, so I can't vouch for any of these people. However, it has always occurred to me that if a man can fool tens of thousands of people with what seem to us to be lame-ass arguments, then surely he can also fool himself by the same arguments.

To take one specific instance. As Phat points out, these people tend to preach the "prosperity gospel". Now, if they were getting rich by banging away about what Jesus said about the rich, camels and needles eyes, and so forth, then we could believe that they were hypocrites. But they preach that God rewards faith with worldly goods, and if they can convince their vast congregations of this, is there any reason why they can't have convinced themselves, or been convinced by hearing similar preaching?

It's not listed in the Bible, but my spiritual gift, my specific calling from God, is to be a television talk-show host.

- James Bakker

As for NJ's point about "if they know the Bible that well", are we convinced that they are real Bible scholars and deep theologians? It's like saying: "Creationists can't know science that well and be so oblivious to not know when they are clearly in the wrong". Well, the solution to that little paradox is not that creationist are all a bunch of knowlegable liars, but that they don't know science that well.

One should also never underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. I have seen an avowed Christian (a Tax Protestor looney) explain that Jesus' bon mot about "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" means that it is wrong to pay taxes ('cos everything belongs to God or something like that); and an avowed Christian with a mean streak a mile wide explain that Jesus' command to be "gentle as doves" means that he should "fight viciously" (because that's what doves do in the mating season, he claims).


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16550
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 15 of 531 (474442)
07-08-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
07-08-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Specifically to the point
quote:

...I'll bet these people don't even believe in God or the authority of the Bible. Because surely they would be extremely aware that they are crooks and swindlers, the same kind that Jesus warned about in the Bible.

Buzsaw has no problem misrepresenting the Bible, while boasting of being an expert in Bible prophecy and claiming to be an honest man.

Maybe these guys are the same way. Is that honest, or not ?


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